DizzyDee

Accordingly to this scale (quoted from "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins), what do you think the probability that there is a god falls and how does it effect your life?

1. Strong theist. 100 percent probability of the existence of God. In the words of C.G. Jung, "I do not believe, I know."

2. De facto Theist. Very high probability of God but short of 100 per cent. "I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."

3. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 percent probability of God, but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am included to believe in God."

4. Completely impartial agnostic. Believes there is a 50/50 probability that God exists. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.

5. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism.. Lower than a 50 per cent probability but not very low. "I don't know whether God exists but I'm included to be sceptical."

6. De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."

7. Strong atheist "I know there is no God, which the same conviction as Jung "knows" there is one.

Dawkins points out that Atheists do not have faith; and reason alone could not propel one to total conviction that anything definitely does not exist. Hence category 7 is in practice rather emptier than its opposite number, category 1. Dawkins places himself in category 6, leaning towards 7 and says, "I am agnostic only to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the garden."

I, myself, would probably put myself in level 5, leaning towards and possibly in the process of learning enough that I could move into category 6.

How about everyone else? Can you fit yourself into this scale somewhere?

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DizzyDee

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Armel P

I have an issue with this type of spectrum (which is similar to the one Dawkins used in the God Delusion). I believe it mischaracterizes the true position of an agnostic.

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mister_lister

I tend to agree with the last poster. I am an agnostic simply because there is no empirical evidence that there is a deity or deities. There are no percentages to that position. I would be swayed to either side based soley on evidence, not arguementation or popularity of a position.

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"The trouble is not with what we don't know, it is with what we think we know that just ain't so". ~ Mark Twain

Astreja

For omnipotent, omnipresent deities I'm a 6.

For god-like beings (not necessarily immortal) I'm at about 3 1/2.

Og

Theists say that the stories are literal recollections of events and that they are true.

Atheists say that the stories are literal recollections of events and that they are false (rightly so).

Enlightened human beings recognize them as metaphors pointing at a mystery beyond all categories of thought and immune to definition. The mystery of existence.

Spectrums like this one are the problem. They have nothing to do with the role that religion should play (i.e. connecting you to the community and that mystery).

Atheists and theists are both literalists and committing the same mistake. They're both a collection of poor unenlightened souls. As are fence sitting agnostics.

Tat Tvam Asi. Thou art God.

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DizzyDee

What, in your opinion, is the "true" position of an agnostic?

I personally do not think there is one "true" position of agnosticism - it has no dogma, no political position. I for one, certainly describe myself as an agnostic, I do not think it can be proven that God exists or does not exist, but I do think there are probabilities, correlating clues as to whether or not there might be a supernatural being and I believe that probability is low in God's favour. From what I've gained from reading this forum, is that agnostics have many positions, beliefs, and opinions. What I love about being agnostic is I can look at the philosophical view points ranging from theism to deism to athiesm, gather wisdom and enlightenment from traditions as well as science and develop a personal "spirituality" which has nothing to do with a belief in God, but has more to do with the pursuit of knowledge and happiness.

My purpose in starting this thread was to see the diversity of agnostic beliefs in the forum. So I invite those who do not see themselves falling into this scale, to tell me why and how they do see themselves as agnostic. I really like Og`s reply - he seems to believe that theists and atheists fall into very small literalists boxes. I believe both theists and atheists have a diversity of opinions and many of them while claiming belief or disbelief in god can also make use of metaphor - I've met them. And I doubt that I was narrowly claim that only agnostics are "enlightened", although I'm inclined to say that Og seems to have attained enlightenment. I've always enjoyed your posts.

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DizzyDee

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

milligal

In this spectrum I would be a 3. But I do not believe that God is as described in the Bible or christian religions. I'm most inclined to look at God as a creative energy that is not in touch with our daily lives.

I've laso found the beliefs of the Kabbala interesting, that there is a group of male and female Gods. I'm not sold on any one belief at this point.

Maximus

Well I believe in God ( as some of you may know I see it as that which exists for the purpose of existence ) but I see God as a neutrality, are you asking in the sense that God is a benevolent force?

If you're asking me if I believe in God as a benevolent or melevolent force than no, I'd categorize myself in low probability.

The An-Jel

I can not place myself anywhere on that list because I haven't any proof to say I can agree with any of those assessments.

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Armel P

There is a true position of the agnostic and it is what Huxley meant by the term. He believe that both religion and atheism claim to have a certain knowledge which is not discoverable. His view shares logic with the scientific method: You draw conclusion on testable things. If something is tested and show to be probably true then one can places his/her confidence in that. If something is tested and show to be probably false one should not place any confidence in that assertion. If something cannot be tested, it is a non-issue. The result of this form of thinking as it relates to the god concept is that there is good reason to believe that religious dogma is wrong (e.g. the Jewish/Christian/Muslim god cannot exist), that the general idea of a god is not testable and therefore is a non-issue, and in either case there is no reason to vest any believe in a god. Some atheists claim this is actually a form of what is termed "weak atheism". However, I think it is the other way around: weak atheism is actually agnosticism. And this form of agnosticism does not fall into that scale because an agnostic can be a "strong atheist" to certain ideas and a "weak atheist" to other ideas.

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