Armel P

I'm creating this topic to get an idea of the Agnostic demographic in this community. There are those that call themselves Agnostic because they're undecided, those that merely feel the universe is a mysterious place humans can't understand, and those who make decisions based on carefully considered logical conclusions. Within which category do you fall?

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Og

I do not think that one need be "on the fence" in terms of the idea of an individual entity God in order to be an agnostic. I think it's more than clear, given our understanding of the world, that the idea of a personal god or a god who is an individual entity is false.

As for agnostic, I think the term embodies the scientific method. As sherlock holmes said:

Science is in the business of APPROACHING truth, not attaining it. It chips away at what is not truth in the same way that a sculptor chips away at what is "not" the statue. Science does this chipping with the scientific method. If the idea resists chipping then it's focused in on and people try their best to chip away at it.

Like gold that is melted and scraped and burned in order to purify it.

The process of science is a non-dogmatic self correcting study where we learn what is NOT the truth. What remains, we say, is something like the truth. This is agnosticism to me. It has provided us with our modern understanding of ourselves and the universe. It's given us the tools to actually see and hear the creation event (radio telescopes and the cosmic background radiation). It's given us modern telecommunications and extended lifestyles.

Agnosticism does not mean that the questions are too hard to answer or "the data isn't in." It means that I will build up an understanding of what things are not in order to get myself closer to the truth of what they are.

To me it's not "I don't know if I believe in yaweh/allah." To me it's: "those are false," but I still don't know what it means to exist or even if that question makes any sense in the first place.

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Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Armel P

I agree. I always find myself pointing to the scientific method when arguing with people that call themselves Atheists. If you can test it, you can understand it. Otherwise, it is a non-issue. When you get down to these arguments, however, you find out just how narrow the schism between Atheism and Agnosticism is. And to some degree, it is not expected. There are many people who feel that there is a bigger gap between the two belief systems and those people tend to be either fence-sitters (actually quite rare and shouldn't be considered Agnostic) and people who just say "We don't know" without seeking a deep understanding of that statement.

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Og

I don't really label myself an agnostic or an atheist.. too much baggage with each word.

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Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Armel P

I don't mind it. It satisfies a very human part of me that enjoys belonging to a group. I'm even hoping to write an Agnostic Manifesto and have already designed a symbol.

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Astreja

I'm a skeptical agnostic theist with a touch of apatheism. I think that gods are possible, but recognize that there is no way for a non-god to verify their credentials. There's also no way to determine the boundaries of reality -- Is this a closed system? If so, what if anything lies beyond?

Then, discarding the above questions as essentially unanswerable, I get back to the business of living my life and enjoy the occasional bursts of mystical activity that sometimes invade my world.

Armel P

From Guy Maddin territory.

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zombie2012

From what I think about a somewhat believe i cant really say if i'm fully agnostic or not. I mean i'vr read alot about the ancient astronaut theory from sitchin and Will hart and that as changed alot of my views on religion and life. If I said that I believed that we were created by aliens, wouldn't that really make me an atheist?I've read about some of the alien-based religions and i am very interested i them, but they still are "religions", so there is room for manipulation and brainwashing. So all in all I would say that I am just confused.

Piglet

Armel P

And those conclusions are based on 4 decades of rational observation.
+ Many many thousands of work read. [some really good stories]
By a being society says is in the .05% top range, Mr smart guy. [but not really]

Yet it all brings me closer to my ignorance. [is that T S Eliot?]

There can be no 'proof of athiesm'
And any religion that has hell in it is false.

What is left Armel ?

Biding time

Piglet

PS. could you email me the symbol?
I'd like to see it.
nemesis@westnet.com.au

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Armel P

I have to be honest, I can't tell if you are disagreeing with me. But I will say that the logical thinking involved dates back much farther than four decades. It just was not as fashionable as it came to be in the twentieth century. I think there has been an intelligentsia, of small percentage as usual, for hundred of years that understood or would have understood these ideas and it is because of these people that he have such a grasp of the ideas now.

As for the symbol, well I can't do that yet. The symbol is highly dependent on the essay I might write on agnosticism. But this essay will also serve as a learning process for me and I may change my views as a write it. So we'll see. I may even decide that having a symbol is too childish or even that it somehow undermines the ideas. I've always hated symbology and numerology. It is nice and tasteful though.

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