Nick Treklis

While I understand this sentiment, you ought to realize all emotions are delusional. This is because they arise out of a false belief in the inherent existence of the self, others, and any other thing you can think of. If you wish to end some of this suffering then you might want to think about why these people are caused to be the way they are. These people did not make a decision to become ignorant, they are exactly what Nature determined them to be. Getting angry with them is like getting angry at a weed for growing in your garden. Yes they may cause you an inconvenience, but they had no choice in the matter.

romansh

Interesting Nick,
I agree that with the sage advice for dealing with weeds and foolish believers.
Now, all emotions are delusional. Existence of any other thing is a false belief ? (Sounds like something Godel would be proud of?)
Your evidence for this?

all the best

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Nick Treklis

Correct, because they only arise when one has a deluded view of reality, e.g. believing things, especially the self, inherently exist.

No, belief in the inherent existence of a thing is false. Proof is provided by the fact that all boundries we set are subjective, and are merely a mental construction or illusion if you will. Also any thing you think of is dependent on other things for its existence through a causal relationship. For instance, my computer gains its identity because it not the desk it rests on, it is not the room it is placed in, it is not the air that surrounds it, and it is not the person pressing the keys on it.

romansh

This is a like debating with Og ... from my perspective this is a good thing... but then again it (me thinking this is good) is an emotion and therfore an delusion ... ...
I think I understand what you are saying about boundaries (have not quite reconciled it internally but that is OK). Boundaries do have a practical value... rarely walk into walls these days ... Nothing like a drink, or two, to break down those boundaries though ...

Can you explain the the difference for you between inherent existence and the plain old common variety of existence?

Thanks

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Nick Treklis

Not neccessarily, just because values are subjective doesn't mean they are delusional. If you find that what I said accords with what you already value then you are simply stating a fact. For instance, I consider wisdom a good thing and ignorance an evil thing. There's nothing ultimately right or wrong with these statements, they are just opinions. All I ask people to do is make sure that whatever they value is valued for the sake of wisdom and the truth.

Existence and Inherent existence are not polar opposites. Anything can be said to exist if we set boundaries around it and/or define it, i.e. A=A. Inherent existence means that the thing in question exists independently in every aspect. This quality is not something we can attribute to any finite entity, be it a christian god, a person, a soul, a planet, or the visible universe, for these things have traits which make the distinguishable from other things. The only thing that inherently exists is the Totality itself. Everything else imaginable or unimaginable, true or false, falls short of being able to lay claim to this quality.

romansh

I was not thinking values as much as the gratification I get, when somebody reinforces them.
and your quote was ..... OK emotions by and large are various *ins, *gens and *ones (eg adrenalin) coursing through our veins. Now I understand the independent existence does not exist argument. But I'm not sure how believing in an idependent self (or not) makes an emotion delusional? Similarly believing in a value. How does believing or not believing make the effects of the additives any less delusional. Beer mellows me out ... is this delusional? I think you see where I going with this?

thanks

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Nick Treklis

Believing an an independent self means that the ego is still alive and well, and when the ego is still in control we experience emotion as a result of the ego's perceived triumphs or failures. Since the ego is essentially an illusion, we can say that emotions are delusional being that they only arise when the this false belief is in place. For most people they don't consciously recognize the ego as something that exists because they are completely under its spell.

The actual process of beer mellowing you out is not a delusion, (A=A). But your desire to be mellowed out by beer, or your desire to achieve any particular emotional state is delusional because the ego is dictating your actions, and as I've already explained, the ego is an illusion.

romansh

Hi Nick
Do you believe in free will .... I suspect not?
A dependent self would be completely analogous to a lack of free will?
I'm OK with this.

But, for better or worse, it is my conscious (ego) that drives this rationalization.
Now does my conscious drive my tostesterone, adrenalin, etc?
Does my conscious forge my frequently used neural pathways?
My desire to be melow .... could it be an addiction?
I suppose I'm trying to say I'm OK with being a chemical machine, but consciousness is an integral part of that particular boundary. You and I are having this exchange, our boundaries are at least touching. Whether the boundaries are real, arbitary or whatever they are of use.

So if the ego/conscious is an illusion, then what is thing I experience as ego in reality?

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Nick Treklis

It's not that I believe free will doesn't exist, I know free will doesn't exist.

I don't want you to confuse the terms consciousness and ego. Consciousness is an awareness of reality as it actually is, ego is a result of unconsciousness.

It depends on how conscious you are at any particular moment. Say for instance you suspect your wife is cheating on you and are experiencing a rush of different emotions, and eventually you become conscious of the fact that she is not. You will immediately stop experiencing the emotions you were experiencing just moments before you became aware of the truth of the situation. The same dynamic is at work with the conscious realization of the false nature of the ego, you immediately stop experiencing certain emotions and partaking in delusional thought processes. Obviously with something as life changing as this is, you wont do a complete 180 over night. It takes lots of dedication, meditation, and practice to overcome the ego completely. Your neural pathways weren't forged over night, so it will take time to abandon the old and forge the new ones.


Absolutely.

Just because one might become conscious of the non-inherent existence of the self and others doesn't mean he would throw out boundaries. Part of being conscious means that we will always have to interact with things this way on a practical level. Dividing things up can be very useful, especially when done in the most reasonable and logical manner. It's just a matter of realizing the Absolute Truth of the situation, what you do with it is up to you.

The ego is something that is deeply ingrained in us, I suspect it is something that evolved over time and was very useful in our survival at some point. It's just my view that I think we've reached a point where we no longer need it and can begin to engage with the world in a more conscious manner.

romansh

Thanks for taking the time.
.. .. sorry
So are emotions a delusion?

So is the ego a delusion?

I understand we can control our emotions to some degree ... the mind meld Spock ... But they are real in the sense they are our interpretation of some evolutionary chemical response? Similarly our unconscious has its evolutionary function aswell. So I posit in this sense they are real? Chemical reactions at the very least (perhaps most?)

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams