Jesse

Determinism wasn't blown out of the water by the uncertainty principle. Probabilistic determinism, for example, states that the universe is deterministic in its laws but probabilistic in its unfolding. In other words, the universe deterministically produces probable outcomes. This is actually the kind of determinism that underlies quantum mechanics. To quote from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, "Ironically, quantum mechanics is one of the best prospects for a genuinely deterministic theory in modern times!" Also, you should check out Bohmian quantum mechanics, which posits some hidden variables and takes quantum mechanics back into regular forms of determinism rather than probabilistic determinism. Either way, the uncertainty principle does not lend credence to the Libertarian position.

Gettin' In Tune

This has been an interesting thread. I see some that there is some confusion involving choice, especially concerning atheism. I would like to point out for all of you who think atheism is a choice, isn't agnosticism also a choice? I am a little confused about choice.

I think it might seem like atheism is a choice, especially throughout Western civilization. The status quo has always been christianity. Perhaps, this is where the confusion is coming. The baseline has always been to believe in god and a supernatural entity. In our society, atheism is generally a conscious choice. The norm to believe in a Higher Power and it is conditioned in us. To opt of of the norm requires a conscious decision. In this sense, agnosticism is also a choice. If the baseline was reverse, and people were raised as atheist and/or noncognitivists, it would require a conscious decision to believe in god. Either that or a good acid trip.

I am not sure I really understand the motive to call atheism a choice . Correct me if I am wrong, but there seems to be some negative connotations behind calling atheism a choice. (I could be misreading into it). Many agnostics who are here are also by choice: skeptical of your religion and the God you once believed in.

Part of my atheism is a choice, but another part is the product of intellectual endeavor. I openly refute a theological god. In this sense, we are all atheist to some degree. I probably just refute one more god then most; the judeo-christian god. I will not even entertain the idea, just like many do not entertain that zeus is going to strike you down with a thunder bolt.

What really drove me into the bosom of atheism, was my effort with deism. I gave an honest attempt to find a natural god based on reason, nature, and science. So far, I have nothing to show for it. The reason is because god suffers from theological noncognitivism. I apply noncogtivism to both the capitlized 'G'od and the lower case 'g'od. I have no idea what god means anymore. It is a word without any substance. I really do not know how to entertain the thought of god anymore, since I cannot define it. What is the meaning of god?

__________________
"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

Jesse

Before I make my point, I need to give a little background on myself.

I grew up as a Christian of the fundamentalist variety. I went to church regularly and during the summer I went to Christian summercamps where they held competitions as to who could memorize the most verses of the Bible. Needless to say, I was heavily indoctrinated.

Around the time I became 13 years old I began to develop a passion for learning about science--the methods and theories. Eventually I stumbled across Baron d'Holbach's "The System of Nature" thinking, at first, it was a book about the science of the late 1700s. Seemed interesting, I thought. I came to learn it wasn't a science book at all but a philosophy book that argued for the atheist position. The arguments presented by it were elegantly written and very persuasive. It through my whole worldview into question.

I began to doubt the veracity of my religion. I continued reading "The System of Nature" and about various scientific theories -- and with a passion kindled within me for philosophy I studied some philosophical views as well. My belief in Christianity slowly dissolved into nothingness. At this point, however, I still believed there was a god of some sort.

Now I started to become interested in theology. Christianity was wrong. I started to study and scrutinize other religions to try finding one that I thought was compatible with the new ways I was viewing reality. Buddhism and Theosophy were the most compelling to me, but they had their flaws and I was ultimately unsatisfied with them. Theology, of course, has a definite link with the study of history. As such, I began studying the history of theology. The myths were too similar. They all lacked evidence. They also contained absurdities. Many religions sprang from other religions. They seemed to converged on a common source. This did little to effect my belief in god but it did imply quite strongly the falsity of religion in general.

I continued to read "The System of Nature" along with other freethought works. (Mind you, "The System of Nature" is a two-volume work and would consist of roughly 1,000 pages if printed with a 12pt font. It took a long time to read!) AJ Ayer, Annie Besant, Joseph McCabe, Robert G. Ingersoll, Richard Carrier, and many others were included in many studies. Robert G. Ingersoll was one of my favorites among them. His arguments were compelling, lucid, and elegantly crafted. I was beginning to doubt the very notion of a god. At this point I was still clinging to my belief though.

There was another author I read who was very influential in my views. Woolsey Teller and his writing "The Atheism of Astronomy." This book threw my belief in god into question in a very big way. I found it harder and harder to reconcile my idea of god with the facts presented in that book. This is when I was on the threshold of atheism.

I remember being in my room, in the dark, crying and praying and praying some more. "God, if you exist then please give me a sign!" Nothing. I prayed some more. "God, if you exist then please give me a sign!" Nothing. I cried and cried. I laid awake many nights thinking about whether god existed or not and generally didn't get much sleep. The question of god's existence or nonexistence was never answered by god or myself. My belief in god slowly dissolved into nothingness. I could not hold the belief "God exists" in my mind anymore. Belief in god had become impossible for me.

My point in telling my story, though, is to show that my atheism was not a choice. It was an inevitability of my experiences. To say it was a choice is akin to saying "one morning you woke up and decided that disbelief was a better option than belief and you quickly changed positions because of your choice." That trivializes my position, my memories, my thoughts, and my periods of sadness. Quite frankly, it is insulting.

Searcher

I stand corrected on that aspect. Which I did expect, I just thought I would bring it up. Either way Quantum mechanics certainly complicated things above the deterministic Newtonian view, as it raised the question of whether we can determine everything or not. Right?


Regarding 'choice', thats a really tricky one. I am assuming GIT* is ignoring the determinism aspect, and instead is referring to whether we can choose what we believe or not. Which is still a very tough question.

I think ultimately you feel what you feel, and thus believe what you believe without specifically choosing it. I don't think you can consciously choose which evidence you find compelling. You just find it compelling, or you don't. Each person finds appeal in different things.

If you are just talking about labelling, then yes I think we have a choice. I generally try to avoid labelling myself, yet am pretty confident in saying I come into the category we know as agnostic.

*I apologise for the appreviation, it you don't like it choose a different name in future! Or let me know and I'll find a more flattering abbreviation.

Jesse

Yes, it did throw some doubt on whether the future could be predicted or not.

Gettin' In Tune

Thank you Jesse for telling your story. Unlike you, I grew up non-religious. I had a religious grandmother and was surrounded by religion. God infiltrated me via the society, and I believed in a God but did not know what type of God. Sometimes it seemed appropriate to believe in a nebulous Higher Power.

I was around the age of 10, lying in awake in my bed staring into the heavenly bodies when a sudden surge of emotion filled me like I never experienced. I got out of bed and onto to my knees. I sincerely prayed to God and called to Him with all my heart. I wanted to know! A few tears streamed down my cheeks as a prayed and talked to God. I ask for an explicit sign. I told God that I was not asking for much, but I wanted to believe. I asked for him to help me believe. Ultimately, I was let down and disappointed.

As I grew up I always wondered. I was always anti-religious and sometimes this drove me into the bosom of atheism and agnosticism for the wrong reason: revulsion of revealed religion. In the back of my mind I held on the concept of a Higher Power.

In 2005, a friend turned my onto to Emmet Fox and The Sermon on the Mount. I loved it and thought maybe there was something to this. I still appreciate the intelligent interpretation behind it, but not the supernatural. Then the onslaught of this new age atheism came on during when I was my most spiritual and close to God as I ever been.

I always loved a good argument, and was out to prove that god existed to these atheist. While I was at my most "spiritual", I never bought into religion or sacrificed critical thought for dogma. I failed against atheists. It was like playing chess and I was always getting checkmated, but gained some valuable insights. It drove me into the bosom of deism. I tried to find god with intelligence, rational, and reason to prove atheism was wrong. I could not.

The only choice I had was to become honest with myself. There were a few pivotal moments of choice where I had to be brutally honest with myself despite what I wanted to believe in. What I wanted to believe in did not coincide with realty. Perhaps, I did not have a choice. My choice was made through honesty and intelligent pursuit.

God may exists, but I have exhausted every angle for the time being. As for now, I do not know what god means nor where god can exist. When I arrived at my atheism I felt enlightened. I let go of god and claimed this world as my own. It is truly wonderful not to have god as a buffer. It is freedom. Life is so much more mysterious and intriguing. Today, I know what god is not, but I also know what humility is: it is knowing that you do not know everything. I do not know the answers to the deep metaphysical questions that mankind yearns for. I can say with honesty that I do not know, but would like to find out.

__________________
"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

The An-Jel

So what did create the universe:

So what did create the universe.

Jews and Arabs can't create the Universe. Neither can white or black people. So would you agree that we are merely abstracts of a universe in compliance with a world you are placed on? I am merely a particle of acceptance.

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

Jesse

An-Jel, the inability of someone to answer a question does not lend credence to any answer given by someone else.

Gettin' In Tune

your indication to race is sophomoric. Why you contumely spew out garbage is beyond my comprehension.

__________________
"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

Searcher

Regarding choice, I think faith in a religion, or lack thereof, is not a conscious choice. So I agree with Gettin In Tune and Jesse on that score.

The pursuit or investigation into one or the other, or both, I think is a choice. And that can lead you one way or the other depending how you go about it. For example, if you go looking for evidence in a Church, by asking priests about religion, without also asking militant atheists the same questions, then you are not taking a balanced and open approach and the outcome is biased.

What you end up believing is, I think, a consequence of what you find during your investigation. You can choose where to look, what to read and what to hear. But you cannot consciously decide whether any particular thing convinces you - it just happens.