rebel_guy

OK, are agnostics agnostic on the issue of whether Zeus exists, or Horus, or Thor? No? But where is the evidence to disprove the existence of these gods? So why make an exception for God/Allah/Jehovah etc? These gods are the inventions of the human mind just as much as Thor and Zeus...so why are they given any plausibility at all? All gods are false almost by definition. If God is all-powerful i.e. contains all the power in the universe then I must be part of God since I, like all human beings, contain some power (Spinoza argued in this fashion). If God is perfect goodness and all powerful then why does evil exist? Forget about the free will nonsense. If God is all knowing then he knows the future so all of our choices are fully determined, in which case we have no free will (and deterministic science based on cause and effect does not admit free will either). And so on...all of these debates have been rehearsed endlessly in philosophy. Ultimately all God squadders resort to saying that they have 'faith' that something is true.

An atheist is someone who says that not only can non-physical gods not exist but any entity with the properties attributed to God is a logical impossibility, hence one does not even have to look for evidence to disprove God's existence since such a being cannot exist in the first place. Do we waste time trying to disprove werewolves or vampires? Do we search for square circles? Aren't agnostics showing cowardice and lack of intellect when they refuse to commit themselves to atheism?

Leibniz argued that this must be the best of all possible worlds because if a better world were possible God would surely have made it (otherwise he would be perverse). Logically airtight. So, ask yourself, is this the best of all possible worlds. No? Then you ought to be an atheist!

AB517

I am no fundamentalist, be it atheistic or theistic hate.

In speaking to atheist and theist fundie’s, logical really means do you agree with them or not. Logic has no real meaning to them.

greywolf90

wow, could you have at least introduced yourself before breaking out your conversian rant? i have heard arguments like this before, and i think what atheists do not understand is that agnosticism isn't the fear of choosing a side and being wrong. the agnostic is someone who does not take a side on something that they have no knowledge or evidence of. to me this seems more intellegent; to follow evidence and not limit yourself to assumptions. i do consider yaweh/allah to be the same as zeus or thor. i regard religion in the same way i regard myths. if an atheist is someone who is without a god or religion, then yes, i am an atheist. but if an atheist is someone who believes they know that it is impossible for a god to be responsible for existance, then i am not an atheist. to me, your assumption that there is not a god is the same as a theists assumption that their is a god. we do not know how life began, so until we get evidence on what has caused existance, god remains as a possible hypothesis. welcome to the forum. it is refreshing to argue with someone other than a theist for once.

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"is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"- poe

shadowind

it seems brave to me, a square circle is against the definition of a circle.however often part of god's definition is that he's bascily untestable, being a non-physical entity thats bascily only felt through fate. i think theres better explanations of that feeling one might get in church or an occult meeting, but people aren't happy with thoses explanations. still ultimatly if we can't test a theory or rule it out its possible no?

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remember "for mere impulse of appetite is slavery, while obedience to a law which we prescirbe to oursleves is liberty"-rousseau: the concept of the general will "if we can not reconcile all opions, then let us endeavour to unite all hearts."-?"to be is to be perceived"-? "‘We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know’-Robert G. Ingersoll

Lanya

Personally, I assume I am agnostic on those issues, yes. I also assume I'm unsure whether or not you're a unicorn, or whether or not the keys I'm typing on will eat my hands, though for the sake of convenience, I assume those things aren't true.

Why would the evidence that backs up the statement, "Such a being cannot exist in the first place" not be the "evidence to disprove God's existence?" Why would that evidence not need to be "looked for?"

Could you explain this more? What is it that you think agnostics fear? How do you think agnosticism connects to "lack of intellect?"

I assume I don't know whether this is the best of all possible worlds.

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Please take these above statements of mine as assumptions only. I don't mean to state anything as a truth.

xxkayxx

I think people who have to live in a bubble all their lives, pretending they know everything just to get through the day w/ no worries/doubts, are the true "cowards".

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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing

WilliamBlue

This guy sounds just like the theist that we have on this board, I wonder how close they really are in the way they think about things?

Oh yeah, Zeus rocks

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When you dance with an elephant it's up to you to not get stepped on.
How can we be so arrogant and egotistical to believe that the whole Universe was created just for us?
Anger is like you drinking poison and hoping your enemy will die.

xxkayxx

Nahh, he's not THAT bad. I think it was more of a question to get a better understanding of Why we're agnostics. Came off more as assumptions and criticism though....>.>
But everyone has their fair share of being misunderstood.

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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing

WilliamBlue

Ok, just for arguments sake, why in your intellectual mind is this statement false?
Maybe you are part of God?

__________________
When you dance with an elephant it's up to you to not get stepped on.
How can we be so arrogant and egotistical to believe that the whole Universe was created just for us?
Anger is like you drinking poison and hoping your enemy will die.

romansh

OK show that god is a logical impossibility.

welcome by the way

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams