romansh

Part of me agrees with you.
In the sense that ... do I know or believe the sun will come come up tomorrow?
There is 4.5 Gy of precedent (or at least very strong evidence) that it has risen pretty much daily. So do we know or believe the sun will rise tomorrow?

I am a hardened advocate of evidence and rational explanation.

So for you, Remster, what is the difference between belief and knowledge?
Like I said .... definition wars!

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

AB517

I use what I know to support what I believe. I believe in something bigger than me and I use knowledge to support that belief. OOPPS! I mean I use Observation as my Evidence to support my hypothesis about a higher power.

I agree with Rom, it comes down to a definition.

Good topic.

Remster

Nothing, actually. My memory is so feeble that by the time I'd finished reading your reply I'd forgotten that you'd written 'I refer those beliefs as assumptions'.

Remster

Romansh & AB517

I suppose by 'knowledge' I mean 'verified belief'*, where 'verified' is used in the strongest possible sense, viz. an infallibilist one. I think this is what 'knowledge' means in everyday parlance, but I realise this is a controversial claim.

Perhaps a different way for me to approach the issue, which doesn't depend on the controversial claim of the last paragraph (but maybe takes us ostensibly off topic), is to say this:

I'd be willing to argue that everyone has at least some beliefs for which they have no evidence.

Is that a better gauntlet to throw down?

Remster

*I prefer this to 'justified true belief', because I wouldn't want to rule out the possibility that beliefs can be justified on pragmatic grounds, e.g. because they make people happy.

romansh

OK ... so can you give an example of an unverified belief an agnostic might have?

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Remster

It depends on what sort of 'agnostic' you're talking about (a person who withholds belief or a person who merely denies knowledge) and what he claims to be agnostic with regard to (God, the external world, other minds, the past, science, everything). Clearly I can't give an example of an unverified belief that a person who withholds belief about everything might have, because ex hypothesi he has no beliefs. Assuming that's not what you're asking me to do, can you specify please?

(By the way, I'm genuinely hoping to proved wrong in this discussion!)

romansh

Can you give me an example of both?

An example for me personally would be free will

From an emotional and a purely pragmatic point of view, I have lots.
From a cold logical point of view I have none.

logic wins .... now would I call this a belief?

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

AB517

Yes, I would.

For some reason you believe you have absolutely no control over your thoughts.
There is no data that supports this so you “believe” that you do not have control.

Remember though the key words are “absolutely no control”.

romansh

Hi AB .... the more I read, the more I am convinced that free will is an illusion.
I have to admit I find it an interesting but academic discussion. In that, I will continue to embrace the illusion, and abide by its consequences.

Regarding 'no data' I would argue this is false.
Regarding the 'logic' side of things, the arguments against this are "patently we have free will." I have not seen anyone try to refute the logic.

Sadly, at end of the day ... it is "I believe I have control" ... that is my sad belief.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

AB517

What are you reading?

Not sad ... even if you think your fooling yourself at least make it

Happily I believe “I have no control” and I enjoy this belief.

For what ever you believe let life bring you joy for the limited time we have.
Next time you need to go Right … take a left and laugh at yourself, and please think of me and enjoy laughing at us both.