Skepticologist

And why are you so perversely incapable of correctly using the English language?

I suppose it's impressive to drop words like epistemology and oncology into posts where they have no relevance ("Agnosticism is an epistemology [The branch of philosophy that studies the nature of knowledge, its presuppositions and foundations, and its extent and validity], not an ontology [The branch of metaphysics that deals with the nature of being]"). That's like saying a Chevrolet is a history, not an idea.

Immediately foregoing that gem of nonsense, was this statement in response to sisterX's question regarding whether most agnostics strongly disbelieve in god: "No, it s not true. Agnostic atheists may strongly disbelieve in God(s). Agnostic theists may strongly believe in God(s)."

I agree with the answer, but find the explanation ludicrous. There is no such animal as an "agnostic atheist" or an "agnostic theist". Both terms are self-contradictory, used in support of the faulty conclusion that "the two are not counterposed".

I offer below, as I did in the thread What is an agnostic god? on August 10, definitions of the key terms from the American Heritage College Dictionary:

Atheism: 1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. 2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods. 3. Godlessness; immorality.

Agnosticism: 1. The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge. 2. The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.

Theism: Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.

Now let's replace the terms with the definitions (paraphrased) in your assertion:

People who believe there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist who disbelieve or deny the existence of God or Gods may strongly disbelieve in God(s). People who believe there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist who believe in the existence of a god or gods may strongly believe in God(s)."

As I said in my title: gobbledygook!

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"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

Jayhawker Soule

And what is atheism? Stop embarrassing yourself.

Skepticologist

Perhaps, not being as steeped in epistemology and oncology as you apparently are, you'll do me the favor of being a bit more specific as to your question.

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"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

Jayhawker Soule

Certainly. Would you classify atheism as an ontology or an epistemology?

Skepticologist

Neither. If you'll refer to the definitions I offered earlier, you'll see that epistemology is the philosophical study of the nature of knowledge (some definitions include and justified belief. Atheism, as well as agnoticism and, for that matter, theism, are all subjects of epistemology, but can't be referred to as the study itself.

Huxley is said to have used agnosticism as an epistemological platform for evaluating what people can know or not know (prove or not prove, when referring to agnosticism). I've never quite been comfortable with that perspective. Instead, I prefer looking at it in terms of applying epistemology to evaluate what can be proven and what can't be proven regarding a supreme being and arriving at the answer nothing.

If your premise is that epistemology is a more appropriate platform for studying agnosticism, atheism and theism than is ontology, then I strongly agree with you.

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"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

skeptic griggsy

Sure, as a fallibilistic atheist/agnostic/ignostic, I indeed find that others can find other viewpoints more to their liking. But, they should do so on the basis of reason and facts,faith,being the mere i just say so of credulity. I think that they should try to overcome the presumption of naturalism as proponents of miracles have to overcome Hume's demand for evidence, therefore not question begging. The presumption is that causalism[natural causes] are the efficient, necessary, primary, sufficient and ultimate causes and explanations.Einstein overcame Newton's laws to restrict their application.

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:: Fr.Griggs rests in his Socratic ignorance and humble naturalism. He might be wrong. And his cortical defects might harm his thinking and posting. Logic is the bane of theists.

romansh

I am sometimes surprised by the more strident atheists. Not so much by what they say, but as to how they think people (especially Christians) will react. For honey catches more flies than vinegar.

As an aside it was this dissertation that drove me to find agnosticforums.com

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/agnosticism.htm

Australian atheists may think that I am a confused thinker and dangerous, but now I'm truly confused? Any comments?

Also the 'fairy, of the tooth and common or garden variety' arguments that atheists use, I find difficult to find difficult to dispatch with ease. Is there a good/logical argument for not accepting the possibility of fairies and the like?

I can find/see absolutely no evidence for a theist God, fairies and the like, so I am as certain as I can be they don't exist. With respect to a deitistic god, I am not sure what to look for, so how I can assert or dismiss? Regardless of whether God exists, I think it would be foolish of me to believe that God or a deity would ascribe to any flavour of religion or that I should expect to see a sign any time soon.

So in the meantime I (we) should do the best as we know how.

all the best

ThomasHenry

It never ceases to amaze me, that the occupants of a small planet which revolves around a minor solar system on the fringe of an insignificant galaxy should profess to have such profound knowledge of Ultimate Truth about what would appear to be a rather vast and complex Universe.

Geshtinnanna

Really? It doesn't amaze me anymore.
Welcome

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