Vinterland

I appreciate it, Marmalade. I'll check this out and reply to you later.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

Og

Nope. Logic is not a thing that may be transcended. It is not a bound entity, it is a perspective that your brain uses to interact with reality. There is no "here is logic" followed by "now we are beyond logic." That is gibberish. Logic is necessarily inclusive of all things. It is simply a perspective in which things may be expressed.

If a thing has existence, as you postulate, then it can be expressed logically. This is not a thing that limits you in any way.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Tomasz

Logic, logic ...

not (A and B) <=> not A or not B
(A=>B) <=> (~A OR B)

Make a bow before the Queen of all sciences
If something is not logic than it's an absurd

Lately I've heard of intuitionistic logic as an axiom theory within mathematics, I was suprised I thought were only 1 logic.

I'd call myself an agnostic non-believer. God is not defined properly, nothing really to speak of. After watching a few debates about God between atheists and theists I arrived at the conclusion that it's a waste of time to discuss nothing - no reliable data is available, alleged prooves of existance of personal God can be easily beaten and that's where I stop.

There's a chapter "Why there's almost certainly no God" in Dawkins' God delusion. It's the most boring chapter of the book. Dawkins talks about probability of God's existance, yet can't express it as a number and that's where he's commiting a mathematical suicide. Rethorical flourish stuck among facts, very disappointing

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It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts - Sherlock Holmes

Og

This is not my opinion. This is an expression of evidence that is, as you say, rationally compelling. Anyone can assert the contrary. We never will be able to state absolute truth about stuff like this, so we're left with what is rationally compelling and supported by evidence.

I disagree. I don't believe that there is any branch of philosophy or any science that addresses the paradox. In fact, you're told to not question the paradox and simply have faith.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Gettin' In Tune

Any agnostic who does not believe in god is an atheist. If you believe in god, can you describe god? Is this description based on empirics? Can this god be measured?

If god is undefined, un-empirical, and not measurable, then why believe or entertain the possibility (i.e. agnosticism).

Agnosticism = entertainment of the possibilities without any evidence or a definition of god. Very political.

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"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

romansh

Hi Og
I looked at a deist forum..... I think they would agree with your 'definition', I just can't help thinking that there are people who are not too concerned regarding a 'first mover' yet believe in a deistic god? .... This would be my 'fence sitting' position regarding the existence of god.

Regarding the (previous) boundaries discussion..... is there a difference between a living creature and say a rock?...... If the answer is no, this could lead me to an atheistic point of view (though not necessarily), if the answer is yes then I would definitely be swayed to agnosticism.
I'm not sure quite what you mean by this? I would have thought some theists would take a religious text quite literally while others could take the same text and take it as a metaphor, both would believe that a god revealed this to those that would listen?

all the best

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Geshtinnanna

I've noticed on most of the threads that instead of answering the simple question people get into the same old this is Agnostic no THIS is Agnostic. No. This is the definition and this is not etc etc. It would be nice if this was all in one thread so we could just get to the answering of the question. I am starting to think Agnostic really are incapable of making a decision on anything

__________________

Gettin' In Tune

As some people know here that I have wavered and waffled on god, but I am a strong atheist. I have attacked god at every angle and came up with nothing.

God is dead. Any concept of god is dead. Free cookies to anyone that proves me otherwise.

__________________
"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

Og

The answer is no.

That is why I have the position that I have. It's not atheistic.. it's "Itheistic" in that I am identical with all things given a lack of cosmic meaning to boundaries. If a divine being exists, it's identity as a being is illusory and I am identical with it as well.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

romansh

Hi Geshtie
In my two and bit months here I don't think an agnostic has told me what I am yet, it's the theists and atheists seem more worried about what agnostics are or are not?

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams