Vinterland

[quote=romansh;23116]Hi V .... hope Santa was good to you
Very good; no coal in the stocking this year. You?
What I'm trying to say is: a strong atheist can say
"I do not believe god exists" and be true.
Yes
Whereas for an agnostic for whom the weak atheist definition is true, cannot say, "I believe god does not exist"
Yes
For an atheist the weak and strong definitions, from a practical point of view, are synonymous. For an agnostic they are not.
They would only be synonymous if each description was of equal value and could be used interchangably; they are not. Even a strong-atheist will often make the distinction between both statements.

For a strong and a 'true' weak atheist this will not be true,
"I do not disbelieve god exists".
But for an agnostic it is.
How is that again?
The knowledge based agnostic does not have evidence and consequently knowledge; therefore does not believe nor disbelieve. The knowledge based agnostic does not have beliefs and disbeliefs.

I'm not sure how to say this any clearer? .....
The agnostic can choose to believe or disbelieve, and including you, disbelieve in Gods from what I gather proper. You doubt that God exists and are still agnostic; EVERY agnostic believes or disbelieves. You acknowledge there are hypothesis of God that you cannot know if ar true, therefore do more than "lack belief"; you actively disbelieve.

How would find out if said God exists? Do you agree that no one can prove their existence to themselves logically? An atheist does not say there is no God, that is a strong atheist.

romansh

Yes they can, but I suspect they "choose" not to.
I'll take your word for it? Actually no I won't.... I don't disbelieve in god

Yes I am atheist, when it comes to theistic gods.
Not the deadbeat father kind though.

I think we are not going to come to concensus on this one V.

If it's OK with you; we take a half time break on this one?

All the best

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Vinterland

Okie dokie , I had actually forgot completely about this topic due to a lack of interest, but then I saw your post in another topic and I recalled. So, if you don't mind I'd like to throw out a few more ideas before we both call it in.

I'm using the common dictionary to define simple words like 'doubt' and 'disbelieve'. I mean them to be mostly synonymous with each other, that disbelieve means doubt in a belief and that doubt is synonymous with skepticism and to a great extent, imo, agnosticism. I agree more or less with Og's definition in the ghost topic, he said an agnostic should not believe in anything that no evidence supports conclusively. That my standard definition of agnosticism and I agree that an agnostic shouldn't believe. So what else does an agnostic do but DOUBT the vadility of these claims? I disbelieve in theism because logic cannot be successfully applied in order for me to define God. This does not mean that I deny the possibility of God. So tell me if this is true or not -- you are equating the term disbelief with strong atheism; belief that God cannot exist.

Thanks, I'm just trying to understand if there's something about agnosticism I'm missing because you seem to know.

romansh

"I disbelieve god does exists"
yes
would be a stong atheist as opposed to a weak one.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Vinterland

Not necessarily. It is true to both; however there is more to it than that for a strong atheist. Ignoring that for now, I will focus on the definition of disbelieve -- unwilling to believe in God/ doubt in God/skepticism, etc. All disbelieve implies is that one is not going to accept the belief. Nowwhere in the definition does it say denying every possibility, chance of it happening.

chat with ya tomorrow maybe.

Jacob

Vinterland,

It doesn't matter what I think. Only the truth matters.


Jacob

__________________


Religions, movements and even nations
are constructs invented by humans.

They only take on meaning
if humanity chooses to accept them.

Vinterland

If you care to, define truth.

Jacob

I don't wish to debate the semantics of the word "truth". I was simply admitting the fact that I cannot say whether there is a God or there isn't. I think that whatever is is whether I can recognize it or not.


Jacob

__________________


Religions, movements and even nations
are constructs invented by humans.

They only take on meaning
if humanity chooses to accept them.

Vinterland

Nor do I. Choose a definition and I will agree to it, regardless of its conformance to my own.

Alas, that is what you originally said I agree fully with it. No need to discuss any further.

xxkayxx

Little pink elephants...cute....For me i guess its because i really just cant fathom that their is some allmighty guy in the sky, and i also cant fathom that when i die, thats the end to me? That's really the only way i know how to put it. Plus, i've never been one to easily make decisions, and so making a decision that i dont even have to make, like whether or not god exists, well that just proves pointless to me, when i believe in neither.

__________________
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing