shadowind

my diffinitions
atheism-belief that there is no god(s)
theism-belief in some type of god(s)
agonstic- belief/certainty that god can neither be disproven or proven, neither atheism or theism, agonstic is the middle ground, it claims not to know, for what is beyound our knowledge, when we are truthfull, we must say we do not know. we claim not knowledge of the existance of god, althrough we might lean towards theism or atheism with our fates or other beliefs. others might not lean towards either, others simply don't care, or some combaination.
confused- none of the above, and not knowing where you stand,

Vinterland

My definition of theism is the same. However, it is irrational that atheism is defined as a denial of God/belief there is no God. In fact, by that very definition, atheism is irrational. Being a theist as you defined, is not conditional on level of conviction, but simply belief/faith. The same applies to atheism. I do not have to be convicned like a strong-atheist to be an atheist, I cna simply not believe. Agnosticism is not a middle ground between beliefs; it is a middle ground between convictions. Being that atheism and theism are not necessarily convictions, this reduces agnosticism to a statement about lack of knowledge. I could better explain my beliefs by saying I am a "scientific atheist" or science based atheist rather than using the term agnostic-atheist.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

Vinterland

I understand your appeal to authority, however would you care to actually exmaine my statements about theism and atheism not being defined by conviction?

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

romansh

I don't disagree with your definitions...... it's just that I don't find them adequate (too broad). I agree according to your definition I am an atheist. But according to common use of the word (agnostic) I am an agnostic ..... do you agree?

Can you remind of your definition of agnostic please?

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Vinterland

How is this too broad: "I don't believe in God" (Atheist)
"I believe God does not exist" (Atheist) ?

These two definition differ from the other I wrongly stated of "lack of belief in God" because that one allows every plant, tree and animal to be classified as an atheist. Saying "I don't believe in God" requires conscious recognition of the God-concept before an opinion is made.

I do agree with the common usage of agnostic, you are agnostic. I simply disagree with the commonly used term based on comparisions to theism and atheism.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

romansh

What would you call a person who does not disbelieve in god?

the weak atheist definition I think would include this person? And this is what makes the atheist definition too broad.

Please could you remind me of your agnostic definition.

On another topic(s) all together.... are you in a better mood and ready to share your theist's belief? Also I disagree with some of the recent posts that 'questioned your smartness'. You are far smarter than I was when I was fifteen or sixteen. But I have about 38 y head start.

thanks

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

MAYBE

I am not an atheist because not believing in God is just silly and illogical



amen friend

Vinterland

[quote=romansh;21734]What would you call a person who does not disbelieve in god?
Theist.
the weak atheist definition I think would include this person? And this is what makes the atheist definition too broad.
?
Please could you remind me of your agnostic definition.
I sumed it up in this post: http://www.agnosticforums.com/21729-post102.html
On another topic(s) all together.... are you in a better mood and ready to share your theist's belief? Also I disagree with some of the recent posts that 'questioned your smartness'. You are far smarter than I was when I was fifteen or sixteen. But I have about 38 y head start.

thanks

Speaking with Og has made me realise that my undogmatic attempts to define God are useless, so I am questioning why I am a theist and not an atheist. I think each generation becomes more knowledgeable at younger ages with all the information available. My cousins are 10 and 9 years old and a whole lot more intelligent than I was at there age.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

romansh

So that would make someone who uses the the 'common use' definition of an agnostic both an atheist and a theist?

have you ruled out a deistic god ..... you know a god of the dead beat kind?
It is this kind of god as an agnostic, I personally cannot rule out?

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Vinterland

Disbelieve as in discredit. The agnostic atheist discredits theism based on lacking evidence to its' claims. Therefore, one who does not disbelieve, believes, right?

Imo (and I am not certain of this), it is not agnostic to rule out the possibility of any God. I have not ruled out the literal or non-literal Christian representations of God in Bible despite the former having made seversal testable claims (such as the flood which should have mixed dinosaurs and humans within the same strata, and so forth) that have failed, there still exists the possibility of its existence.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”