Geshtinnanna

Basic definition:
1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
We live a life as a non believer. We have no belief in any deity.

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pseudonous

Vinterland,

I suggest you read the first post in the thread, "Definition of an Agnostic".

http://www.agnosticforums.com/what-a...ere-clear.html


I suggest you also read a post before disagreeing with it. You just quoted a conditional (if/then) statement and suggested I asserted the antecedent.


Since you recognize Huxley coined the term to express his views on religious beliefs, it shouldn't be much of a stretch for you to accept agnosticism refers to a position on religious beliefs. And again, if you read my post you will see that the two definitions of atheism I gave cover atheism and anti-theism.

Gettin' In Tune

I have a problem with the term of agnostic-theism. It does not exist and is a contradiction. There is plenty of knowledge in this world to take a stance with respect to theism. Perhaps I'll eat my words, but I don't think the Earth is center stage in a cosmic play between good and evil.

I practiced deism for awhile and I have concluded that I am agnostic with respect to various (pan, panen) deist conceptions of god. There is no way to make a positive claim that they do no exist. When I was a deist, I was atheist with respect to theism and many deists that I know share this opinion.

When you are talking about revealed religion and the judeo-christian God and/or Allah, I am atheist based on my current knowledge. With respect to deistic gods I am agnostic.

Again, agnostic-theism is a poor use of words.

__________________
"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

Vinterland

I apologise, I assumed you did because it appeared to me you implied that this was the mot fitting definition for atheism. And yes I did read that post, but as you know, I am disputing some assertions made in it.

I do acknowledge he created the term with intention of it describing a position on religious beliefs, but to continue using it that way is incorrect due to misunderstanding of atheism and theism. I have yet to see anyone evidence the notion that every atheist denies God and every theist believes God is absolute - it's the opposite concerning atheists, granted it's probably true to most theists. I see you did mention both, but you labeled most atheists as denying God and again I ask, where are the grounds for stating this? It is reminiscint to the rhetoric I hear from Christian's who like to generalise all atheists and agnostics are God haters and fags.

http://atheism.about.com/od/definiti...tisatheism.htm
Excerpt:
I strongly disagree that agnosticism is mere belief; I'm certain it is a position on knowledge, and not belief. Agnosticism makes the assertion (variably phrased) : it is wrong to be certain of something unless evidence can provided which logically justifies that certainty. It is is an entirely different animal from theistic and atheistic beliefs. I am an agnostic-atheist. I have never had contact with God in any way, shape, or form and I do not have the knowledge to make a an absolute claim either way - agnostic. Because I have never seen any falisfiable evidence concerning its' existance, I currently do not believe in any God, hence I am an atheist. One stating to be "agnostic" only states their position of knowledge concerning the existance of God. Now, honestly, there isn't a need to state your opinion on the matter (theist/atheist), but if one asks if you believe in God, stating "I'm agnostic" doesn't answer the question. Agnosticism = verifiable knowledge, (a)theism = opinion.


Your Style Of Atheism
Could Reduce Atheists' Stigma

Personal sample as well as polls on forums and message board- use google.

Yes, Oxford, among a few other dictionaries incorrectly define atheism, as well as creationism, theism, abiogenesis, and and a myriad of other terms.

And I don't understand your point. Are you referring to agnosticism when you said "We...non believer(s)"?

I will agree that agnostic-theism is nonsensical given the original definition of agnosticism which states 'believe nothing that cannot be demonstrated by the senses.'
Agnostic-theism goes directly against that and is often labeled fideism which is basically believing for the sake of believing, however, more modern definitions such as these suggest compatibility:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?agnostic

a theist can certainly be an agnostic because again, being an atheist or theist is not conditional on how much one is convinced their belief is the truth.

Also, acn you elaborate on this statement: "When you are talking about revealed religion and the judeo-christian God and/or Allah, I am atheist based on my current knowledge. With respect to deistic gods I am agnostic."

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

Gettin' In Tune

A theist cannot be agnostics since it asserts a positive claim. How can you not know if god exist, but believe in god?

With my current knowledge I can claim for certain that a christian god does not exist. There is not one bit of evidence supporting a christian god or any god(s) that revealed religions espouse. This stance I am a strong atheist. An agnostic who feels his knowledge is insufficient to make the decision lacks belief and is an atheist by definition.

Again, I do not know how a theist can claim agnosticism. How can someone claim that they have no knowledge about god, but believe in god? It is contradictory. Atheism only exists because of theism.

Many deists hypothesize about god and many of these hypotheses cannot yet be tested. Therefore it is impossible to make a positive claim and I cannot know either way. I cannot denounce or make a positive claim regarding many deistic conceptions of gods, because I lack sufficient knowledge. Therefore I am an agnostic or weak atheist.

__________________
"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

pseudonous

No problem, perhaps I was a bit unclear. And you right, the claim that you have a problem with, , is a unsubstantiated. I really should have said many not most. I still stand by my statement that Huxley coined the term agnosticism, in part, to distinguish his position from the position of those atheists.

I don't know what you mean by a misunderstanding of atheism and theism. These terms have been defined the way they have for a long time. There is nothing new to add. Nobody, not even Huxley, thought that all atheists held a belief that god did not exist or even that all theists are 100% certain that god does exist. Such a view is overly simplistic and could only be held by the uneducated.

Agnosticism is not mere belief. Agnosticism is a position on knowledge and belief. This I think is the root of your confusion. The two terms can not be completely separated. Consider the following, All beliefs in something are beliefs that that something is true. Knowledge about something is knowledge that something is true. Therefore, belief and knowledge can not be considered completely separate as they both deal with truth. Perhaps a bit more simply: whether you believe something is true or you know it is true, you still hold it to be true.

Vinterland

I will use the term "agnostic" in its' broadest sense to answer your question. This morning I drove my car downtown and had park 6 blocks down in a run down neighborhood and worked until the evening. Without always acknowledging it, I admit that I agnostic on the issue of whether my car will be there when I walk back to it considering the people that live and commute around that area. I simply cannot know, however, I choose to believe it will be there for my own sake and this in some respects, parallels to agnostic-theism. I consider it a sort of comfort blanket that keeps some of those theists reassured God may exist and this gives them hope for soem kind of afterlife.

You're claiming an absolute here - that the Christian God does not exist. Not even most atheists that I meet on IIDB, elsewhere on skeptic message boards, or in person are so arrogant to do that! Even if "Christ" was proven a fraud, which would logically justify your belief, the possibility of a personal God still exists. Strong-atheism describes your belief here and is frowned upon by agnostic-atheists!
No, agnosticism is not synonymous with "weak" atheism. "Weak"atheism is defined as a lack of belief in God, whereas agnosticism is as you already know, knowledge concerning the existence of God. I suppose you could describe yourself as an agnostic-weak atheist, but given the actual definition most modern atheists go by, agnostic-atheist is most apt.


I agree that he coined the term because of them.

I disagree, a belief is something in which trust is put into and often held to be true without verification. Knowledge on the other hand is the understanding of facts and does not have to be integrated into any belief for any reasons. For instance, many smokers know that long-term smoking often leads to disability problems and higher mortality rates due to diseases, but how many actually apply the facts to their beliefs? Why not smoke... "it makes me feel good". Why not believe in God... it feels good - there is rationale behind these decisions. One can acknowledge the facts, but ignore them and then continue to participate in the long running eugenics program that the tobacco industry and smokers sustain. I think most people, even you and I ignore the facts a little bit every day here and there.

Keith Mayes:
"I think, therefore I think I exist. I think I exist because I think. Does thinking that I exist, or not, alter or not the reality of whether or not I exist? I think not, surely I exist or not, whether or not I think it or not."

For the sake of ones sanity, we dare not ponder the fact that we cannot verify our own existence for too long. In some cases it's better to make an assumption...I simply do not see anything regarding belief in the definition and assertion agnosticism makes. I don't see any implicit statement that means that agnostics are obligated to have the atheistic belief.

From atheism.about:

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

Gettin' In Tune

It is easy to prove that your car exists. You cannot prove that your personal god exists. Your belief that your car was still there and not stolen is a rational belief. Your belief in a personal god is irrational. Your hope for an afterlife is wishful thinking.

I agree that a belief in a personal god and an afterlife is a comfort blanket. Little kids have security blankets and outgrow them. I'd suggest that you do the same. I know I am being brusque, but I say this from experience; let go of your god and live life like this is your only chance. Celebrate and rejoice in your breathing, the sunshine, the wonder, the beauty, the mystery. Do not bank on an afterlife. I am not ruling it out, but don't bank on it.


I am being honest. If you want to call me arrogant that is your prerogative. Prove that your personal god exist and I will start to listen. It is you that is being arrogant and not listening to what reality is telling you. A personal god is juvenile and does not exist. I admit that I am a strong-atheist with respect to a personal god, a christian god, allah, zeus, ra, etc. Most atheist are strong atheist in this regard. What makes your god so special among the spectrum of gods that have been created throughout the history of humanity?

There is no positive claim with agnosticism. There is no such thing as an agnostic-theist. Again, how can you claim that you do not know that god exist, but then choose to believe in god. It is a contradiction. Agnostics who claim that they do not have proper knowledge to make a positive claim on god are atheists by default.

__________________
"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

pseudonous

It seems you understand what Huxley meant by agnosticism and how I use the term. Just in case, I'll state it explicitly. All agnostics are atheists and do not have a belief in the non-existence of god. This is part of an approach to life that extends to all topics not just god.

I followed you about this far. It seems to me you are defining a belief as something that is held to be true without verification. Otherwise, why would you need to put your trust in it. It follows that you define knowledge as something that is held to be true with verification. If this is the case, then they are indeed separate and therefore, all atheists and theists are agnostic. Agnostic would apply to everyone and every belief. I am disinclined to accept your logical scheme on the grounds that it leads to a kind of absurdity.

One very important point, so you don't waste too much more of your time on this. Gnosis refers to the swift apprehension of mystical knowledge and not knowledge in general. This is very important if you wanted to make two terms function in the general way it seems you want. You need a word that refers to knowledge in general; Perhaps undogmatic would do nicely.

Jayhawker Soule

What is fideism?