pseudonous

Concluding without proof doesn't sound very agnostic to me. Why not just call them closet atheists or closet theists. At best, this could describe a phase of someone who is newly agnostic and with time they will simply stop caring if god exists. There are to many other things in life to spend your time thinking about god unless you really believe. Of course, every agnostic may from time to time consider the possiblity either way for the existance of god. It can be a fun exercise in reasoning.

Breaking things up like you do, where would you draw the line between an agnostic and an agnostic theist/atheist, as well as, between an agnostic theist/atheist and a theist/atheist?

LadyLuck

Hmmm...I prefer not to split them up actually ^^ makes things simpler to either state you are or are not agnostic...However, I figure there are different types of agnostics, even if it they aren't addressed. But why should they be? We all recognize the lack of proof, and all claim to not know right? So I really don't think the subdivision is necessary, but whatever, here's how i organize it all in my head:

Agnostic: accepts the fact that no proof for or against the existence of a god is possible, takes the stance "I don't know"

Agnostic Atheist: Same as the definition of agnostic, except their stance is "I don't know, but I feel the existence of a god is unlikely"

Agnostic Theist: Same as the definition of agnostic, except their stance is "I don't know, but i feel the existence of a god is likely"

Atheist: Is certain that no god exists, and stands firmly to their belief

Theist: Is certain a god exists, and stands firmly to their belief

Meh, I don't know if that's the right of wrong way to think about it, oh well

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=^.^=

Gettin' In Tune

I agree that the ancient Egyptian, Babylonians, Phoenicians, Chinese, and many other ancient civilization contributed to the overall body of knowledge, but much of this knowledge was created as an offshoot of technology which makes both life and death more comfortable. My arguement is that this knowledge was not gained via thinking scientifically, but rather through their sphere of activity. The Egyptian advancements in math and egineering were a product of how they viewed death and the afterlife.

This is an interesting thought. Could you please elaborate on this


EDIT: I previously stated that Eratosthenes was 15% off in his measurement of the Earth's diameter. This is true if he used a 'Greek Stade' as his measurement. He was Greek, but living in ancient Alexandria and working at the Great Library which was in Egypt. Using an 'Egyptian Stade' would have only yielded a 2% error

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"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

pseudonous

The Greeks had a transcendental conception of knowledge. This idea is well expressed by Plato's parable of the cave. In this view, knowledge expresses truth about a world separate from the one we perceive. Because of the fallibility of the human senses, it was though that truth had to come from somewhere other than the senses.

"Whether a man gapes at the heavens or blinks on the ground, seeking to learn some particular of sense, I would deny that he can learn, for nothing of that sort is matter of science;..."
Plato, Republic VII

The Greeks made many more contributions to mathematics where their rationalist philosophy was better suited, rather than to physical science where a functional conception of knowledge is required to make real progress.

When Newton first developed his theory of gravitation he compared it with the laws of Kepler and Galileo. Even after finding it to agree, he want to confirm it by using observations of the monthly revolution of the moon around the earth to calculate the circumference of the earth. When he found his calculation did not match the measured circumference of the earth, he left his theory. When a new measurement of the earth's circumference was reported, Newton realized that this new circumference did agree with his theory. It wasn't until this happened that he published his law.

Gettin' In Tune

pseudonous, that was an interesting piece of historical information on th Newton's Theory of Gravity.

Anyways, I was thinking about asking another question that might yield to another tangent.

Is the word agnostic applicable to a belief system or is it just a claim regarding knowledge?

For example, I assume that many agnostics lack a belief in god while simultaneously being open to the possible existence of god contingent on future knowledge. In essence, agnostic is a claim on knowledge and not a belief system associated to a god.

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"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

pseudonous

It is simply a claim regarding knowledge. However, the claim is that you should not reason any further than your reason will take you. This pretty much eliminates having a belief system.

Perhaps you could say there are three laws of agnosticism.

1. Never act without thinking.
2. Never think without reason.
3. Never reason without logic.

Gettin' In Tune

I would not go so far as eliminating a belief system. We all have a belief systems whether it is religious or a world view or a combination of both. I know our understanding of the world is limited and there is much more to learn. With my current knowledge I do no believe that there is a teapot revolving around Mars. My current knowledge also allows me to lack a belief in a deity or "god". A lack of belief in a deity or a supernatural entity makes me atheist based on my current limitations of reasoning. If later evidence shows that there exists a possibility of a deity or "god", then I will be open to explore. Therefore, I take an agnostic stance with respect to knowledge

Again, I am atheist with respect to a supernatural entity. I am agnostics since my belief is subject to change with increasing knowledge of the world.

I like these laws, but they are all based on knowledge. What is an agnostic's belief in a supernatural entity based on their current knowledge?

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"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

pseudonous

Are you sure about that? I certainly don't have any religious beliefs. I wouldn't say I have much of a world view either. I'm not a humanist, a materialist, a naturalist, etc... I have never agreed with or accepted any world view. In a way, I have beliefs but I just call them opinions. Now some of these opinions are justified and I call them axioms, others are educated guesses and I call them hypothesis. There are also other correct uses for opinions. However, I have never used an unfounded opinion as a tenet of my philosophy. At least, not intentionally. It is more accurate to say I have an approach toward life rather than a world view.

The way I see it there are two ways you can approach life. You can answer the questions, who am I?, why am I here?, etc... and then answer the questions, what do I know?, how do I learn, etc... so that the answers of the last set of questions are consistent with the answers to the first set of questions. On the other hand, you can ask the second set of questions before the first set of questions, and again keep the answers consistent.

Geshtinnanna

Or just go outside and do stuff. I kind of go for the third. Since the first two, even with an answer, won't actually change the situation of dying someday. With the end game all the same I don't waste a lot of time with questions. I just play the game till it's over.

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Gettin' In Tune

Yes, I am sure that we all have a belief system shaped by nature, nurture and various forces; historical and contemporaneous. I plan on elaborating on your response, but need some more time.

Here is a couple of world view quizzes I came across:
http://commongood.org/
http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=23320

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"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan