DizzyDee

I agree with you Nanner - our "spiritual feelings" are just chemical reactions in the brain - but they are natural. I was a very spiritual/religious person once. When the whole God/one true path came crashing down, coming out of religion was also a strong emotional experience for me - very similar in fact to accepting God and religion. That similarity in fact is what initially drew me to the conclusion there was no God and agnosticism.

Now that I am agnostic I can still induce the feelings I once descibed as "spiritual" I just do not they they are from God anymore. Those are the feelings of awe and inspiration - and I think they are good for your health. Things that give me those feelings naturally are watching sunsets, laying out under the stars and being amazing by the vastness of the universe, driving or hiking through the mountains, seeing humans overcoming great struggles or reaching new heights, thinking about the people I love, admire and inspire me. Focusing on what's right with the world, and trying to leave a better place for the next generation. There is meaning in this world without a higher power - that is the great thing about being human - our life can mean whatever we want it to mean - even in the direst circumstances.

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DizzyDee

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Faydwyn

I completely disagree. Agnostics have spiritual experiences we just don’t attribute them to anything supernatural. I’ve also had spiritual experiences in meditation and with breathing techniques, as well as in nature and with those I love. But I attributed these to emotions, chemical reactions or other natural phenomena.

In the course in which I learned the main breathing and meditation technique I use, there was a young women who starting praying during it. For her it was a spiritual experience that made her feel closer to a supernatural god. For me it was also a spiritual experience, but not anything supernatural.

As far as nothing having meaning without a supernatural entity; it’s very sad you feel that way. It’s a very limited view and for many it is simply not true. Agnostics and Atheists have meaning in their lives, but the meaning is what they make it, here and now; not what people thousands of years ago said it should be.

Faydwyn

I think that Agnostics (and maybe Atheists too) need a term besides “spiritual;” something that means the same thing only without the supernatural aspect (like the “spirit” part). Unfortunately, our language was developed by theists and I have no idea what a good alternative would be.

mplltt

Perhaps you should appeal to Grant's emotions, not his thoughts on the issue. The establishment has taught him that it is never ok to respond with agreement when approached by anyone providing him an easy way to understand things. His emotion put him on this website. The best answer to Grant's all conclusiveness in his retort is not bible based, it is emotion based. His memory for verses has been tucked away and I admire Grant for that. I prefer to do the same:
The problem with Grant is that in his mind he has no problem. He is here to look. It makes no sense yet, I question for him:
So George, I am sorry for his zeal, and mine, this is really bad. Confrontation like this is only out for a blood bath.

Remember: "To each his own"? Well he will have to question like (above) for a while, this will get him going. He will do one of three things: go to his church or he will stay on these forums looking for confrontation or he will soon question it all, I determine it.

And Grant, the answer is "NO" when you make confrontations with authority you are not free to hate me for choosing for you, go and look it up.

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Thank you, I am impressed that you are forgiving enough to approach this line of reasoning.

}SoC{Sumguy

why do you post as if you know the inner working and motives of Grant's mind? please do not assign thoughts to people.

__________________
"And now you've seen his face,
and you know that there's a place
in the sun, for all that you've done.
For you and your children.
You always wanted to beleive.
Just ask and you'll receive,
beyond your wildest dreams.
And you already know how this will end...."

mplltt

check your private messages.

__________________
Thank you, I am impressed that you are forgiving enough to approach this line of reasoning.

mplltt

I think that people are stuck with the colloquial "insane" for the word "mental" so that would be hard to call the title of the post: Can agnostics be mental? then. I hope to ask, Can agnostics be reputable? I hope that there is some repetition of the problem statement in other words in order to make this easier.

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Thank you, I am impressed that you are forgiving enough to approach this line of reasoning.

Vfr

Sure, spiritual deals with many areas of the unknown and unseen besides the God issue. Many atheists think they free thinkers, when they are still prisoners to mind forged manacles. I'd post more on this topic, but a post about this topic I sent in yesterday got me banned from Evil bible dot com, so do not wish upset anyone here. Will discuss it at a later day when l see how free thinkers the management / members are here.

In the meantime....my discussion of this 'spiritual atheist' topic from an earlier post.

Peace Tools for Atheists

BTW, I do not imply all atheists and agnostics are not free thinkers by any means, but just because one is an atheist it does not make one a freethinker as well.

V (male)

DizzyDee

I'm finding your posts really interesting, could you pm me and send me this post you don't want to get banned for. I promise - even if I'm offended - I won't report you

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DizzyDee

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Vfr

I am writing a post called "On Freethinking" it is unfinished so far. I will send what I have. This contains the replies that got me banned, albeit cleaned up some for the agnostics. Then again maybe they did did not like my other 14 posts, I don't know as they never respond to my inquires.


"On Freethinking" (unfinished)

I posted "Peace Tools for Atheists" to the alt.ateist discussion group to open up some dialogue on what tools are available for the atheist or agnostic to use, in place of organized religion, as ways to generate inner peace. All the tools I discussed were available for any person to use without the belief in God.

In my post I covered many tools from simplicity, compassion, classical philosophical studies, ethics, mindfulness, reciprocity, charity, accepting impermanence, developing gratitude and contentment, cutting back on craving and desires, working with natural law, balanced living, etc. I illustrated how I use freethinking to take tools for peace wherever I find them without prejudice and evaluate the tool on it own and not under guilt by association. All the tools I discussed were available to use without the belief in God.

I received the following 7 replies out of a membership of 1611 atheists 'freethinkers' subscribers from this post: http://www.agnosticforums.com/morali...believers.html

Replies from usenet group


"I've never been not at peace. What you offer makes me physically ill. It's like a nasty man come round to tell little kiddees he has candy for them if they touch his pee pee. You know, most of the atheists I know are as good as children are at discerning misrepresentation. You aren't trying to help anyone but your own self. Go away, we have no interest in touching your pee pee."

"First of all, this is a newsgroup, not the freaking public library. Keep it short and to the point. Second, you're full of s**t."

"Stop posting your vile polemic deliberately nasty, lying Christian? Please go away. No-one is buying your poisonous diatribe. Are you really this stupid, or just pretending?"

"We know this deliberately nasty, slandering liar is a Christian by his fruits. A liar as well as an idiot. Don't be so f**king stupid."

"What the f**k has philosophy got to do with your in-your-face psychopathy?"

"You wouldn't know "virtuous behaviour" if it hit you over the head, whining hypocrite who needs to get the log out of his own eye before accusing us of a projection of his own deficiencies."

"So f**king what? Keep it to yourself and nobody will know what an a**hole you are."

and my favorite....

"Why would any atheist need tools for peace?"


All the replies from that came from the alt.atheists group came not from freethinking atheists, but from non-freethinking atheist. How do I know they are non-freethinking atheist? Because of their replies. I do not expect for anyone to agree with any or all of my tools. But if we disagree with a concept, we must have another concept in mind to replace what we have torn down in our minds as wrong. With this group, all they could offer to replace my tools were 'ad hominem' arguments to destroy me and not destroy the concepts.

Sure tearing others down appeals to ones ego and pride, but so did torturing insects when we were kids. When we grow up we need a different way to find self worth. As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds and water these seeds within you as well. As you give so you receive. Do we like to be beaten down?

Whenever we take it upon ourselves to beat down others, we are headed in a direction of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well as others peace. It takes no energy from me to pass something by and leave it alone in peace. But it takes my energy as well as my peace to pick something up to destroy it.

That is the beauty of being a freethinker. We can think for ourselves. As such, when we get a toolbox we can decide which tools to use for the job. Some tools are used a lot, other tools are left alone for the time being, and still others are trashed when we see they are broken and useless.

Again, a freethinker is 'free to decide' how they wish to proceed. Just be careful of falling into the trap of 'mind manacled freethinker' as many ego based people fall into. And this especially applies to atheists who are notorious for falling into this trap.

Psychologist William James once said, "A great many people believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."