poincicco

I can't imagine this idea hasn't already been kicked around on this forum. But, I am new here, so I'll just go ahead and throw it out there (again?). It has taken many years for my evangelical Xtn faith to dissolve, bringing me to the point where I had to be honest with myself and admit that I really had no good reason to go on believing in God. So, I guess that means I'm an atheist...right? Wrong. I faced that possibility and then had to admit that I really couldn't state categorically that God does not exist. I just don't know enough to be comfortable with such an affirmation. For me it would demand FAITH to hold to such a position...a faith I just don't have. I admit that I don't BELIEVE in God. But, on the other hand, I can't say that I KNOW he/she/it doesn't exist. I just don't KNOW that. That's when I recognized that what I am saying here is that I am an AGNOSTIC. I had been told that an agnostic is a cowardly atheist. But I don't accept that. Atheism, for me, demands a level of faith that I just don't have. Hence my question: in your opinion, dear reader, are atheists actually "believers"? Any thoughts here?

romansh

hi poincicco
the depends on a whole bunch of things ... mainly definitions

god - theistic gods I disbelieve, deistic gods (of the non-separate kind) seem reasonable, at least with evidence available at hand.

theist and deist, theists seem to believe in a god that is outside of nature or separate somehow from us. deists .. I'll let them speak for themselves

agnostic - many flavours, from just don't know, to a method of weighing the evidence. I certainly can't prove much if anything.

atheist - a disbeliever

ps ... yeah I thought 'romansh' was kind of cute, also shows my ego is alive and kicking.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

john76

I'd say you're right. I think atheists are basing their thoughts on 'belief' just as much as theists are - and in my opinion tend to be just as self righteous.

duck

I know that the fundamentalists like to categorize atheism and agnosticism as belief systems. They do this for various reasons. One, to put it in terms of belief that they can understand, and two, to use this as an attack against the unbelievers so that they can show that we are actually believing in something that is anti Christian.

These folks just don't understand the total lack of belief.

__________________
Religion: The ultimate definition of verisimilitude

poincicco

I appreciate the first three responses to my thread here. I think I resonate most with what John76 said ('cause he agrees with me?), but I'm not looking to quarrel or "argue" in the emotional sense. I'm still very much enjoying my relatively new freedom from the kind of dogmatism that sponsors such emotion...the need to defend a position. I think Romansh makes a good point, however, when he/she points out that a lot has to do with definitions...semantics. And Duck, I'm not sure that the "fundamentalists", as you refer to them, are all wrong about atheists being "believers." It seems to me that being an actual atheist IS a position of BELIEF, not DISbelief. I see it as calling for a certain degree of conviction, of certainty that constitutes belief. I, for one, wonder if we can have that kind of certainty when dealing with metaphysics. Anyway, that's what's at the root of my suspicion that atheism is an actual "system" of BELIEF. Maybe some of you out there who consider yourselves atheists would actually be more accurate in calling yourselves agnostics? Just a thought. Input is welcome. Enjoy your weekend. Poincicco

debdodd

this is only lively debate no one is arguing with you .... they are breaking you in slowly because you don't spout off nonsense ..... you actually make sense and sound like a reasonable individual .... so I doubt you will get more than lively debate ....

Sane people we discuss with vigor .. it's the crazies and the fanatics that we tend to bludgeon to death with words. I think you are quite safe from a verbal beating in the near future

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

romansh

There are some that would say that most agnostics are atheists

in that they do not believe in god (which is true for me as an agnostic)
but
a theist could say they do not disbelieve in god (which is also true for me as an agnostic)
I have had endless semantic debates on this one. But I think there are logical beliefs we end up holding because of an agnostic approach to handling evidence.

so semantically speaking the little word "not" and it's position can play havoc with understanding.

To clarify .... to disbelieve could mean ... not to believe or to believe not. I use it in the latter sense.
similarly "not to believe" is different from "to believe not"

In this sense disbelief is as much a belief but to the contrary.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

debdodd

I believe that I do not know and until I die I will not know and then I doubt if I find out anything ....

I do think it is silly for us to believe that we are the only sentient beings in the big picture ... how presumptious of mankind to think that earth is the only place that sustains a life form that has beliefs in some type of higher being.

Do you guys believe that if there wasn't any religion to guide us that we would be a lawless society? That people only do what is "right" because of a fear of going to hell?

I'd love to believe that people could care about each other without having a god demand that we do so .... I'm sure that this total delusional thinking.

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

poincicco

Thanks Debdodd I haven't felt like any arguing was going on here. Bad choice of phraseology on my part. I just wanted to clarify right up front that I'm not into arguing. Used to be, but no more. I DO enjoy a lively debate, though. So, bring it on! Cheers! Poincicco

poincicco

Wow, Romansh! I'm starting to get confused. But that's not unusual for me I think I follow you, though. I had this discussion with my wife last weekend. She's still very much a committed Christian, so she sees my defection as defintely grievous. She understood my agnosticism as an attack on the credibility of her faith...that I was saying, by default, that she was wrong in believing in the tenets of Xty. It took a while, but I think I finally convinced her that I was NOT saying that. That I, in fact, DON'T KNOW enough to say she's wrong. It's just that I don't have the faith to believe what she believes. I suspect she's wrong, but I surely can't say that I KNOW she is. So, I'm not attacking her faith. I respect her faith...and I'd like her to respect my lack of faith. Of course, that's harder for her to do, since she believes I'm wrong and she's right