poincicco

Debdodd, I used to use that argument against the unbelief of my non-Xtn friends. In fact, when they pointed out atheistic humanists who nonetheless served humanity selflisly, I'd feel quite clever in pointing out to them that, yes, they were serving humanity, but for the wrong reasons. They should serve humanity because God calls on us to to that, since man is made in His image. That for their humanitarianism to "count" in God's eyes it had to be done for HIM, not primarily for humanity. Otherwise, it constituted a "dead work". In fact, it was a form of IDOLATRY...serving the creature instead of the Creator.

This rationale mortifies me now. But it seemed so clever then. The idea that no one can be good without it being motivated by a desire to please God...and a fear of his displeasure...is absurd. If God were removed from the equation (as he is for me now), would you go out and rape, rob, lie, cheat, murder, etc? None of the people I know would. If it's only from fear of punishment that we "walk the line", then I'd say we're not moral people at all. We're self-serving egotists who serve our own interests, even when that takes the form of "morality."

'Nuf said. Poincicco

debdodd

well said ... of all the atheist and agnostics I know I find them those most humanitarian ... they do it out of a sense of it's the "right" thing to do.
Knowledge, education, seems to be the "eye opener" for many.

I'm glad to have another well spoken and knowledgeable person on forum.

How long was it between your time of questioning to your time of acceptance if I may ask ... thanks Deb

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

duck

Actually, you may be right in that assessment. I am just not quite ready to accept it as a belief system as a "denial of belief". If that makes sense. More food for thought.

__________________
Religion: The ultimate definition of verisimilitude

poincicco

Deb, I became a "born-again Xtn" in 1965, my senior year of high school. Do the math and you'll know that I'm now sixty (as of two weeks ago!). Holy crap! If I new I would live this long I would have FLOSSED!

My doubting began very shortly after my conversion. But it was explained as Satanic Attacks on my faith. I tried to resist them as such for many years, but they became increasingly persuasive. After five years of theological training, marriage to a fine Xtn gal, and years in the full-time Xtn ministry, I was pretty well locked into a life as a Xtn...but I couldn't stop the doubting. I guess I've always been a very reluctant believer. Anyway, I realized about 6 years ago that I had abandoned enough of my doctrinal beliefs to qualify as a "liberal Xtn"...a theological liberal. Hmmmmm. That brought me to the point that I simply HAD to act on my desire to leave the ministry, or live as a hypocrite. Something I just can't tolerate. I made the big move three years ago and moved back Stateside with my wife (our kids are all grown and out of the house) where I'm working in construction with my son-in-law. I've given myself to lots of reading...in areas that I have ignored for the past years. The result is that I've made peace with my doubts, acknowledging them as My Truth. I went from that position of "liberal Xtn" to a theist. From theist to deist and then, about 6 months ago, I had to be honest and acknowledge that I was, in fact, an agnostic. I've found great peace and a sense of integrity in finally being true to myself. I know that sounds very clichish, but it's also very true. I'm an honest man now and, as Cramer would say, "I'm LOVIN' IT!!!" Of course, it's not without its problems. My wife and best friends are all Xtns. My wife knows of my defection, but most of my friends are still in the dark. Since many of them are back in Europe and the others don't live nearby, I haven't had to confront the issue with them. I'm not looking to scandalize anyone, but neither am I ashamed of where I am. I'm an honest man now, and won't apologize for it if the occasion calls for me to talk about it. So, there you go. More than you asked for, huh?

Take care............Poincicco

debdodd

No, not more than I asked for but I appreciate your honesty and being so candid about your journey.

Wow .... I wonder what it's like in your wife's head at times .... she sounds amazing

I am like you in the fact that I don't go around with a big sign stating my beliefs ... I actually lost a nursing job once for coming out to co-workers ... they were praying for me in the break room and it really ticked me off.

so smart ass that I am ... I made the situation worse because of course I had to make a smart remark ... what a mess that was .... these girls would bring bibles at lunch time ... no one would sit at the same table ... it was like I was a leper or Satan himself ..... small minded people ... it wasn't that great of a job but it still kinda stings that I was on the other end of bigotry .... shunned by a bunch of hard core Baptists ... never tell a group of women of color that you don't believe in their God ...whoa!

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

poincicco

You wonder how my wife feels? Well, she's saddened to not be growing old with a "man of God." I'm truly sorry to disappoint her in that. But I'm sure she's praying for me, that I'll "come back to the fold." I don't see that happening, but she's welcome to pray. Never hurts!! In the meantime she's making the best of it. She'd rather be in the ministry, but she's taking it as philosophically (or theologically) as she can. I admire her for that.

Sorry to hear about your run-in with the Guild of Fundamentalist Nurses. I can imagine how frustrating, and maddening, that must have been. Well, I was once there myself, so I have to be patient with those folks...even though I may feel like kicking their born-again butts!! Take care! Poincicco

romansh

poincicco

my personal observation regarding the beliefs we take up or give up are related to some extent by the company we keep.

For example my wife when we first arrived in Canada started socializing with Christians just to get know people in the community. Next thing I know she starts taking lessons to get baptized. I was the one who was baptized, confirmed and wanted to get married in a church. My wife wanted a registry ceremony.

For me it was the opposite, the people I associated with were silent regarding their beliefs. So the whole religion/god aspect of my life, I realized, was totally unnecessary.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Vinterland

No. The general rule of atheism is that there is no faith involved. Some atheists believe there is no God which requires faith, however they are in the minority. Even if they were the majority it doesn't change the actual definition.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

Vinterland

It's funny how ignorant most "agnostics" are of simple concepts. Theism and atheism are a belief and lack of belief respectively. Logically, atheism cannot be the denial of gods for then a label is missing to call those who are not agnostic, but do not deny the existence of gods. Furthermore, atheism literally means "without a belief in god". Last, the notion that atheism and theism are mutually exclusive with agnosticism is unhistorical. By the very definition Huxley gave agnosticism, it is very much compatible with both.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

poincicco

Okay, I'm a slow study, but some things are starting to break through into this old pumpkin of mine.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but distinguishing between Atheism and Agnosticism isn't a cut and dried affair, is it? I'm seeing from your various responses that it very much depends on where the negatives are put in relation to the verb, "believe", and that depends on the preference or philosophical disposition of the individual who doesn't believe!

"I do NOT BELIEVE in God", could be said by either an atheist OR an agnostic. Neither have a belief system that includes the existence of a personal God. In distinction from the atheist, however, the agnostic could be open to the possibility if enough evidence could be accrued to convince him/her of God's existence, though he/she isn't expecting that to happen.

"I BELIEVE there is NO God", is (in my understanding here) an affirmation that only the atheist can make, as it presumes a degree of knowledge that the agnostic, by definition, claims not to have: that there definitely IS NO GOD. And it IS (again, in my understanding) a FAITH STATEMENT, since the atheist cannot PROVE that there is, in fact, no God. He/she only BELIEVES that there is no God.

So, it seems to me that there are degrees of disbelief in the atheist camp. Some would be closer to agnostics in that they affirm disbelief in God but, maybe for purely philosophical reasons, aren't comfortable with the more militant credo that there definitely IS NO GOD. Then there are those atheists, like Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens, who BELIEVE that there is NO God and would be happy to open the eyes of others to what they believe to be a fundamental reality of the universe. They have made themselves dogmatic, but well-spoken, evangelists of their belief (or so it seems to me.)

So, as someone who likes to get things as clearly in mind as possible, would it be accurate (in most cases anyway) to say that the agnostic is an UNbeliever while the atheist is a DISbeliever? Is there any merit to that distinction, or is it all just relative semantics and not worth any further thought or discussion?

Oh yeah, and keep in mind here that I see participation in this forum as something of a HOBBY. I do it for pleasure and recreation, not to change the world

Poincicco