lauraclay

Or, you could try and respond to something....
Just cuz you get shut down by three different people doesn't mean you can run away with your tail between your legs.

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

debdodd

yes LC he can run and hide because his accusations are unfounded and laced with BS .... he won't respond b/c he knows that it would be an effort in futility. Closed, narrow minded, uninformed as he is he has no facts to back his beliefs up other than his hatred of the US and it's people. Just spewing words of hate is all he can accomplish and a poor grasp of our global involvement.

You see us motivated by greed I see you as motivated by your worldly ignorance. I'd take a bet that given the right opportunity our US hater would jump at our capitalist way of life for himself and his family to prosper. There are few who wouldn't give up a monetarily poor existence in a 3rd world country for the opportunity to feed, clothe, house and educate their children in the US. This guy must have been denied a VISA to come here ... hence his hostility.

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

jaej

I think it's less being narrow minded and uninformed as much as it's the general view in the rest of the world. He's hostile because the world media twists and distorts things to promote a certain perspective, just as the media here does. I'm not saying they are wrong in what they say, but I think they could be a little more objective and a little less critical.

An effort in fultility? Of course it's going to be futile. He is arguing against people who are all american (you, me, lc) and all of whom have very strong opinions about things. Do you think he's going to expect us to be unpatriotic, as popular as that is now?

You do realize how 'closed, narrow minded, uninformed' this sounds? I happen to know otherwise, but some people might not. I didn't think what he said sounded hateful. He has every right to criticize what he thinks is wrong, as much as WE think HE is wrong. He obviously has some sort of bias toward American foreign policy, as I'm sure we do, objective though we think we are. I do think I was being objective in what I said, but I am open to the possibility that I'm influenced by some type of bias. Probability, rather.

Just be careful. You sound very bigoted saying that.

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debdodd

jaej here's what I think of that ....

So many people confuse the American government and American politics with the American people. Middle class America is not to blame for much of the criticism we get .... it's the lobbyist and big business, the capitalist of the nations, not only ours who are to blame for the views of the American people. Middle class has the same difficulties and concerns of people all over the world, getting education for their children, paying their bills, making sure they have enough to get by month to month .....

there are plenty of people on this forum from, England (Mick is one) ... another new person from the Philippines .... there are a few more I just can't remember name and homelands but I have never seen them spew garbage about us .... I just get riled up when the people are blamed for their leaders mistakes .... I don't see it so much as patriotism from myself and LC as it is tunnel vision on his part.

Seriously re-read his garbage on slavery and us leeching off the world's poor. Uh I don't see China paying a decent minimum wage to their people ... and as for slavery .... what country doesn't have a history of slavery in some form or another .... hell there are parts of the world now that still have slaves ... nah, jaej, don't give this guy the benefit of the doubt or defend his right to his opinion .... if he had an informed opinion then yes I'd say he's entitled to it but his statistics are wrong, his facts are wrong and he has no interest in finding out the truth it's easier to point a finger at the US people for the errors of their leaders .... he is just one of those people that hate for hates sake

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

jaej

I will always defend someone's right to their opinion. ALWAYS. Hitler deserved his own opinion just as much as Gandhi did.

I am not saying he is right in his criticism of the American people, nor in his inaccurate assesment of US policy.

Again, I'm on your side. I do still think it's not good to just label someone as a hater. As you said, you don't know where he's from. You don't know what kind of misconceptions he harbors. All I'm saying is I think you should be less harsh and outspoken. I know all about it, and it's not fun.

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The An-Jel

So let me ask you a question all you loyal "Americans." Are we not a country by the people, for the people? Isn't the American Government suppose to speak for you and me? Do you not think the way the Corporations exploit the poor in other country's reflects AT ALL how others in the world view you as a citizen of this country? I would remind you that this is a Democracy and that the people in charge in the view of the rest of the world are the people EVERY American wants in there. While I think some of the country's that are more linked to us on a personal level know that the Middle East situation wasn't the American peoples position until we voted Bush back in office. Other country's watch the excess on TV and believe me even the foreigners that come into this country think that the TV is the way the American people think. People around the world and in this very country are utterly disgusted I think more than we can even know at America's actions around the world. If there is someone that doesn't like us I can understand and if they voice their thoughts in here unless their basis is completely far fetched and outrageous well I suggest we grin and bear it cause thats our legacy. Even if said allegations by this someone are based more on far fetched and outrageous innuendo I would add again this is the legacy that we give to the world. We may feel the Democracy here to a degree while the rest of the world feels the grip of Capitalism more than our version of Democracy.

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

debdodd

An-jel,
Well thought out, well presented, rational rhetoric but hell no ..... the forum rules say no personal attacks ..... we have been PC about middle eastern folks, we are semi tolerant of Faith and Bod and Og can argue about gnats all they want ..... but I do not have to be lumped in with a preconceived idea of an ugly American just because I am a citizen of the US .... total BS ... I'm suppose to let him have his opinion and let him voice it but me not lob it back into his court? ... not cool but my opinion is ... he should stop believing what he sees on TV and get educated about who and what we really are. Yeah, there are a bunch of corporate monsters out there .... our President isn't the best we've ever had and I don't agree with everything he says/does ..... I also don't say all North Koreans are horrible because of their dictator .... I don't think all French people smell just because someone told me that's why they invented perfume (bad joke someone told me) the point is ..... don't blame an entire country or it's people because of it's leaders or the unethical practice of billionaires .... if you want to point fingers ... look at the oil rich sheiks who have multi million dollars yachts and their country's poor burn camel dung for warmth .... I don't blame the people of the middle east ... it's the system that's broken .... I think anyone who thinks we truly have much of a say in our government is mistaken .... Sorry An-jel but no personal attacks per the rules and that means no personal attacks on Americans! People of the world can have their opinions of us but to present it on this forum is wrong and unacceptable.

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

The An-Jel

Interesting statement. Yes all those things you said I can agree with about the other countries and such but let me ask you? What really are you as a citizen as a citizen of the United States? Notice I am not using any Mod power here just simple argument because I think you got some odd flag-waving (specially after what I saw of your father's statement and legitimately so) American people invulnerability I hope you don't take to those other country's your planning on going to. Thats the stuff I felt everytime I opened my mouth in the other places I was in. Mind you it took a lot to change their minds and this change was only for me cause I agreed about American arrogance and how more often than not it was repugnant and undeserved. I live on Earth and the world at large should be everyones concern. Mind you America is just about like anywhere else you can live in. Somethings you can do and some things you can't do... cultural extremes here and cultural extremes there... just all a matter of what a person is comfortable with. Incidently this is a World Society now. What happens in America affects the world like what happens in Iraq affects the world. Isolationists trying to build a world economy unless they simply want a facist rule (lots of countries, governments, corporations, and the like want that huh? Look how it's turning out... ) National Prejiduce is not a healthy objective considering the state of the world.

When does just screaming and flapping your arms really do anything that a good rationally explained thought can't do better. Politicians and Religious Zealots do the same kinds of things and look where that gets them.

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

debdodd

Oh I agree with much of what you say. Those that blame the US for all the world's woe. What I find more disagreeable is when they blame the people of the US. I reposted his quote that got myself and LC worked up. It's our fault for everything .... allegedly it has nothing to do with the economics and corruption around the world .... the "Darfur's" and such .... he believes we are all about money .... An-jel, you've said many times about money is not a driving force in your life. If his opinion was based on facts then it wouldn't be so difficult to tolerate his ignorance. He chooses not to find out the truth about we/us, the actual people. People don't always come to the US for financial gain, we all know the true reason many people leave their homelands, freedom from oppression, war, famine and on and on.

Saying we would be nothing without leeching off the poor ... No doubt many businesses outsource things to foreign countries because of cheap labor but when the Americans do get knowledge of that kind of behavior it's called to our attention and usually the people of the US collaborate and call for fair wage and often boycotting a company that doesn't pay a living wage. tho' the wages are not that of the US ... they still make a living off the work that they do .... some countries would not prosper without our companies pouring money into their coffers. Saying we built our nation's economy on slavery is bigoted and uninformed. I wonder wasn't it the slaves that built the pyramids, America was one of the strongest supporter of ending Apartheid in South Africa .... He appears to say we are the only country that ever had slaves!! I know you know all of this and more .... it just get me riled when we as a group are blamed ..... during WWII, weren't the Jews accused of causing economic woes in the world? I won't go on b/c you have your thoughts as I do my own.

As for when I go on my trip, I plan on being an "ambassador" of civility, respecting their cultures, politeness, I can only be an example of what middle class America is and hope I can change their opinion of us one person at a time. Isn't there some cliché that says "hate the game not the player"?

I think I'll just drop this for now

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

The An-Jel

Yes I read the post and I see granpa as a very angry person but nothing I haven't seen before. Perhaps you good folks haven't seen this kind of rhetoric before. The exaggerations, the incriminations (some justified and some not), the slavery thing was fun.

Politics and Corporations are representatives of the people. They have CORPORATE Representatives there from AMERICA doing business making deals and with their huge salaries pushing people around there like they push people around here. Are those Americans even less representatives than say your Middle Class type representation. All Americans are representative of the system... good and bad.

You know the fun thing about South Africa is? When I was there yes the Apartheid was gone and the whites I talked to weren't to pleased with it not because of the release of the blacks but the infiltrations of American companies and the replacement of some shifty characters into government positions obviously sympathetic to American Corporations. The funniest example I have is that Pepsi Co. refused to place their soft drink product as an item of sale there but Cocacola (sp?) would. Lo and behold, I am someone who keeps tabs on Corporations that own this and that kinda like Disney owns ABC and the like, KFC was there. KFC is owned by Pepsi Co. but were serving Coke as a beverage. I think thats where the problem lies with foreign countries, they see these events like ending Apartheid and America ending the strife. All of a sudden you have this new government installed and then the true invasion happens... American Corporations plying their wears and suddenly the population is being overrun by these company's. Michael Jackson opened, according to a girl I met there, owned a chain of glamorous resorts. He had a contract with Pepsi Co. then (1999.) I even saw Jacko there getting a haircut in one of the glamorous Hotels in Cape Town where I was vacationing at the time. Funny stuff.

First thing I heard when the Soviet Union fell and the new Republic formed McDonalds was moving into Russia. That bastion of freedom, that symbol of all that is innocent and good in the World: MCDONALDS! Now I ask you overall aside from the Ronald, Grimmace, and Mayor McCheese what is McDonalds. Why let me think? Thinking real, real hard here. It's coming to me. Why Yes! Yes! It's a multi-billion dollar Corporation with a new group of victims, I mean, customers to feed their kangaroo meat to and pry dollars from. Not even a second to let that country breathe and get their own identity on it's own and McDonalds is moving in. Just an example I am sure lots of other corporations are in there as well from other countries following the great American tradition. Like I said before I don't mind living here... but some stuff just utterly disgusts me.

Calvin Coolidge is one of my favorite Presidents and in certain aspects I tried to emulate him for his silence mostly. Unfortunately I have a big mouth sometimes and that wasn't like him. Despite all the good America tries to do and the image as the good guy they try to uphold his quote is by far the more overriding imperative:

" Business of America is Business " - Calvin Coolidge

It is a simple and obvious Truth that Americans see as everyday and everywhere so they call it Democracy. It isn't.

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment