lauraclay

What's worse, sectarian violence where people who can now vote (women too might I add) are fighting for what they believe in, or random men being randomly pulled out of their homes and tortured, hung by their thumbs, killed, for no purpose other than to keep people 'on their toes'? Seriously, the Middle East is always filled with violence, but maybe a civil war in Iraq will solve a little something. Or maybe it's proof that they won't agree to anything over there. And maybe we went to war under false pretenses, but I really do not think it is worse over there since we came. Violence comes and goes in waves over there, and we are not 100% responsible for the sectarian conflict. It's not like we grouped up some Sunnis over in one corner and some Shi'ites in another corner and rung a bell.

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

lauraclay

True, in modern day countries. But do you think the Middle East will change anything, especially to make anything more Western? Look what happened to Iran after they tried to westernize...taken over by a radical.

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

jaej

You don't think it's worse?

Sure, they had a horrible dictator, but they didn't just pick their victims at random. They had to do something, however minor, to piss off the government. Not so now. Now, civilians by the hundreds are killed by collateral damage from suicide bombers and insurgents.

Sure, they can vote, in theory (and in practice i guess), but not really. Not the way it's intended. The purpose of a democracy is to enable the government to best serve through the people, assuming the ones in power are the ones really put there by the people. I don't think those Iraqis who voted voted for a government that is completely incapable of producing any sort of order.

You are right in that the situation with Sadaam was bull****, but at least there was the illusion of order. Like I said-if you could manage to not offend anyone, you were okay. Now, whether you live or die is too often determined by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There is sectarian violence now because a gross failure by our military and the Iraqi 'government' to establish order. Do you think there was the same amount of chaos and carnage when there was an opressive regime? Not a chance.

Not that I'm promoting that type of government, I'm just saying.

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lauraclay

How much do you know about pre-war Iraq? Did you research that, or are you just assuming? Because I know for a fact that they did just select men at random to instill fear. And not offending the government at all was virtually impossible. And then there were the genocides. We have yet to cause one of those. Maybe it wasn't as chaotic, but that just means it was orderly murder. I hardly think that's better.

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

lauraclay

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1100529.stm

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2002/03/22/iraq12900.htm

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...6/550kmbzd.asp

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030404-1.html

http://www.nickqueen.com/?p=134

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

Aaron

There was no pre-war Iraq. There has been conflict there since recorded history. There is only, in reference to current times, pre-US occupation of Iraq.

All we've done is turn chaotic order into chaotic disorder at the cost of a few thousand of our fine solder's lives. We've made nothing better nor worse over there. We've only changed the method of death and mayhem employed by whom and by how.

Now we have our **** caught in our zipper. We can't leave now because Iraq will be thrown into such a political vacuum that current death tolls would be unsubstantial by comparison. Staying is going to cost millions of dollars and thousands of more lives.

Discussing weather or not we should be there, or how and why we're there is a moot point. We are there now. So, what should we do now?

lauraclay

Good point. All I can say is that I'm glad I don't have to make that decision. There are good sides and bad sides to each argument. I think if I had to decide, I might just present myself to the Iraqi 'Congress' and say, "Look, I'm sorry. We've done all we can. I want to pull out and leave it in your hands." And if the government protests and truly wants us there, we'd stay. And if they don't, we'd leave. Because honestly, no matter what we do, someone home is going to be pissed.

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

Aaron

Agreed. It doesn't matter much what course we take because either way we can expect backlash. As you said yourself, I'm glad it isn't my decision.

All I can say is that if we stay, changes have to be made. A full occupational force must be deployed and strip Iraq of idividuaul freedom and force them to regain it (freedom) from us on thier own. It's a version of the tough love that parents have been using for years: "As long as you live on my dime, you will do as I say. If you don't like it, start taking care of yourself."

Or we can leave and let them duke it out. But, if we choose to leave, we must leave outright and abruptly. None of this lingering forces crap.

Please uderstand these are ideas, not opinions. I'm just thinking aloud for the benifit of input.