buzz2

I listen to "The Neal Boortz Show" about every day on the radio. When I first started listening, he was talking about the "fair tax". The more I listened, the more I liked the idea. They're trying to get enough sponsors in congress and the senate to put it to a vote. I bought both books about it, written by Congressman John Linder and Boortz. They're very informative. I was just wondering if any of yall have heard of this and what you think of the idea and whether you'd support it, if it were to come before the American people for a vote? I like the idea of getting rid of the IRS and not having to file income taxes anymore. Everyone would only have to pay taxes on what they spend.
I think it would help to bring businesses back to this country instead of outsourcing to avoid all those corporate taxes we have now. It could create jobs. Even though most tax lawyers would be out of a job. I'm sure they'd find jobs elsewhere. It would make the tax system "transparent". You'd know exactly what you're paying for. What do yall think?

duck

One, there is no constitutional provision for a national referendum, except for amending the constitution and that is only for the state's legislatures for ratification.

The idea of a national sales tax (Value Added Tax is another name) has been around for decades and really never goes anywhere. I'm all for it, but it'll never happen.

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buzz2

Do you think that with enough public support and pressure on the politicians that it could happen though? I mean, people are fed up with the current system with all of it's intricacies. It just seems to be getting harder & harder to try to understand every year. Folks are tired of the govt. "holding a gun to your head while they pick your pockets clean".
You can go to www.fairtax.org. It has some info. there. I really think it's picking up steam the more that people become aware that there's an alternative circulating out there.
I think that some politicians don't like it, because it will cut off their ear-marks and pork barrel spending programs. Just a thought.

duck

Here's the problem with the whole process:

Lobbies > We The People

Earmarks and Pork Barrell = Political Reelection

I remember that early in the Reagan administration the idea of amending the constitution to allow for national referendums was tossed about, but was shelved after looking at states with open referendum and initiative processes that this tends to be the realm of political extremism from the far left and far right.

Yes, I agree with you on the waste and stupidity of politicians, but I just really can't see real tax reform in my lifetime. More's the pity.

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buzz2

I'm trying to follow the issue as close as I can. Seems to me it's picking up alot of support from congressmen and senators alike. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I don't think that this is one of those "pipe dreams". Getting closer to becoming a reality. It just needs to somehow get the public's attention and educate them about it more than it has. It's an interesting subject once you get into it though. And I'm not one for the mathematics of it. But, it has held my attention. Maybe because I don't have to sit in a classroom like in school. It's of my own choosing that I pay attention to it. Ya think?

PsiCop

The reason why jobs are being expatriated has nothing to do with the tax system. It has everything to do with the cost of labor. It costs pennies on the dollar to hire people in places like Mexico, India, China, etc. No national sales tax can change that. The only tax policy that could stop it, would be a direct tax on expatriated jobs ... and we all KNOW that will NEVER happen.

The belief that a national sales tax will magically fix the country, is wishful thinking, pure and simple. Neither will a revenue-collection bureaucracy disappear ... the idea that a sales tax can collect itself is laughable. Of course there will still be an IRS under a national sales tax ... they will just be collecting the tax from anyone who sells anything, rather than from every business and person.

romansh

Two thoughts cross my mind reading this thread:
1) At least part of the reason the work is being exported is that we don't want to pay the price of goods made at western labour salaries, even if the quality is better.

2) We are quite happy (well up to a point) to give foreign aid. But if the recipients can even begin to compete for work then we are not so happy. So we are quite happy to give people fish, but not let them fish ... to mix a simile.

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buzz2

Psicop,
Apparently, you have not even tried to do any research about the fair tax, or you'd know the difference between that and a national sales tax. Why don't you do that. Then, when you know better, you can mock it.
Go to either, www.nealboortz.com or www.fairtax.org. At least check it out before you try and shoot it down. You might be surprised by the amount of support it has picked up. Or go pick up the books I mentioned at the library. That's not too hard, is it?

PsiCop

Sorry to break this to you, but I have done so. I have found it to be lacking ... mostly because of the people who support it. They engage in propaganda tricks (such as calling it a "fair" tax when in reality it is a "national sales tax"; ANY kind of a tax can be called "fair," calling it "fair" is quite obviously NOT a description of what it is). They weave fantasies (such as that a different tax system will magically create jobs and eliminate tax-collection bureaucracy). They generally do a lot of wishful thinking based on what they would like to see, rather than what really exists.

Been there, done that, not impressed with propaganda tricks such as calling their tax "fair," the invention of new words like "pre-bate," or laughable claims such as the sales tax will collect itself and require no one to police it.

Is there some reason ... other than the fact that I dislike the techniques used to promote it ... that makes you think I have no idea what Boortz's national sales tax is? It is illogical and irrational for you to conclude that ONLY ignorance of it can lead to dismissal of it. You'd be in company with (for example) Christians who think that non-believers are merely ignorant of Christianity and if they knew about it, they'd embrace it. Both of these are fallacious positions.

Bzzzt! Argumentum ad populum! This is a fallacy. Ideas do not gain veracity or validity based on how many people have accepted them.

All of the literature on the subject of this national sales tax, is written by propagandists whose motives I distrust and whose claims I consider suspect and non-credible (due to their obvious use of propaganda tricks). When someone spews propaganda at me, I do not believe them. I just don't.

Moreover, they claim that a national sales tax will collect itself, obviating the need for an IRS. This is patently absurd. Every state, county and city in the country which has a sales tax, has a bureaucracy to collect it. Every single one. They are LYING when they tell you none is necessary. There is no magic that will transfer sales taxes from cashiers' drawers to the national treasury ... there IS work involved, and there WILL BE people to police the process. It cannot be otherwise.

Their "abolish the IRS" lie alone, condemns them utterly. Given that, their use of propaganda tricks becomes secondary to everything else they say, because they cannot be believed.

You would do well to examine their motives yourself. IF you are willing to do so. Since you railed at me for not knowing enough about the national sales tax, I wonder ... perhaps it's time for ME to demand that YOU instead examine its proponents' motives and try to account for their use of propaganda techniques? I assume, of course, that you are NOT willing to do that, in which case you condemn yourself as a hypocrite ... but that would be beside the point.

buzz2

OK PsiCop,
I'm just not understanding your meaning when you say propaganda. Is it the books? Because I see those as a way to get the information out to the public. The same with the radio waves or the internet. The information has to get out there SOMEHOW. How else could you do it? So, I don't see it as propaganda, but as "saturating" the public with information.
The motives, the way I see it, are to change a tax system that really doesn't help the "average Joe". It's a system that's friendly to only the politicians and their special interests. A way for them to buy votes, by telling the general public, "I'll give you this, if you vote for me". And those who are living off of the public dole, eat it up. Example; welfare, food stamps, health care. I know some folks NEED those things. But, some have grown up in the system and don't want to or don't know how to get out of it.
For example, the Alaskan politician who took about a $million to build a heated bus stop. That continues only because of the current tax system allows it. The "Fair Tax" would put a halt to that sort of "pork barrell" spending. I believe the "Fair Tax" is the only plan that addresses all those issues. And, as I said in a different thread, we need to insill term limits for the Congress and Senate to get rid of all those "career politicians". That I think would help the PEOPLE out also.