shadowind

buzz, does a son of a oil tycoon have as much opportunity as the son of a police officer?

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remember "for mere impulse of appetite is slavery, while obedience to a law which we prescirbe to oursleves is liberty"-rousseau: the concept of the general will "if we can not reconcile all opions, then let us endeavour to unite all hearts."-?"to be is to be perceived"-? "‘We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know’-Robert G. Ingersoll

xxkayxx

[quote=buzz2;28884]Being so religious, i would expect you to realize that money isn't EVERYTHING buzz. It's not like people Choose to live in poverty. You're forgetting other factors. Of course working hard can usually be rewarding in the long run, but if you have other factors working against you, ie where you live, who your parents are, well, nothing can be totally "fair" , so yh, i Do think it's everyone's responsibilty to make the world a better place, even if it's only in small ways.

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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing

PsiCop

I absolutely agree! I give you no argument on this. In fact, it would be best if both were the case! What I'm getting at is, that we do not, in fact, have equality of opportunity yet, but many Right and some libertarian policies are based on the presumption that we do ... which invalidates those policies.

buzz2

Liberalism teaches or encourages dependence instead of independence. That's one of the main reasons why I don't think it's right. And I think you'd better look at the number of libs in the house and senate before you start throwing barbs at the president. They've been in charge now for how long? Their approval rating is LOWER than the president's. But, I guess that's Bush's fault too. In your opinion, what makes Bush such an "idiot"? He's got the same amount of Ivy-League degrees as Osama-Obama has...( 2 ). Is it that he's not the great orator that say, Reagan was? I'm curious. Is it that we are at war and you tend to disagree with it? Usually, those are the main reasons for all the Bush "hatred" out there. Don't get me wrong. There's several things that I don't like about his policies either,..i.e.. border security, immigration, his administration's "liberal" spending habits. Need I go on? But, for me, the most important issue facing this country today, I think he's been spot-on. That is terrorism and the war against Islamofascists and radical Islam. Again... Just my opinion. Liberals think that we can just go and TALK to these radicals and that will make them not want to kill US. You can't talk to madmen. You can't appease them. So, what else has Bush done that's so bad?

buzz2

[quote=xxkayxx;29045]Kay,
I don't mind helping some folks out. As a matter of fact, I DO help out. But, it's on my own terms. As for a person's locale, they can move out of the bad area they're in. One person comes to mind. Check out a man named, Dr. Thomas Sowell. I think I spelled his name right. Anyway, google his name. He is a "self made" man. Point is, I stand by what I said. Every person can make their own opportunities. They just have to work hard for them. The govt. handouts just create a dependance on the govt. to take care of their needs and take away their will to go out and earn it.

PsiCop

Not necessarily. It depends on how one defines "liberalism." What you're doing is regurgitating a Limbaugh/Hannity talking-point, based on a particular type of "liberalism," but not "liberalism" as a whole (it's something that comes in many forms, just as there are many forms of conservatism ... which the aforementioned blowhards also often misrepresent by presenting only one definition of that, too).

I know people who qualify as "liberals" who do not think everyone should get government largesse, only those they believe "need" it. Of course, defining "need" is another matter ... but since these people believe there is a point beyond which government should not give to people, then they CANNOT, by definition, be promoting "government dependence for all," since they do not think that "everyone" should get government help.
You're basing your opinion of "liberalism" on talking-points parroted by the Right-wing. I can think of no worse way to understand it.
As a rule, Congressional approval ratings are ALWAYS lower than the president's. That they are slightly lower, hardly helps Bush in this regard. The fact is that BOTH are held in contempt by the vast majority of the public ... quibbling over minute percentages of difference does nothing to change that.A lot of things are the president's fault. A lot of them are also Congress's fault. For the record I think BOTH are screwing the country royally.He recently made a comment that it was "interesting" that we were looking at $4-a-gallon gasoline. "I've heard that," he said.

Sorry, this doesn't impress me. He's clearly out of touch with ordinary Americans' concerns. Oh, and if you think the price of gas is a trivial thing that a president need not know about, guess again. Few things are as pervasive through the entire economy as the cost of gas. It affects EVERYTHING since virtually all goods are transported by truck. High gas prices are not just something Bush ought to find "interesting" or something that he should have merely "just heard about" ... it's something he should actively be working on at all times.The Senator from Illinois is named "Barack Obama." Not "Osama." I'm not a fan of his, but I'm not attempting coyly to confuse him with the world's most infamous terrorist.
I agree with you on this point: Most people who proclaim to hate Bush are against him solely because of the Iraq War. They are your quintessential "single-issue voters." Then again there are many on the Right, who are ALSO single-issue voters. That doesn't make any of these people right ... all it means is that it's easy to wedge Americans into ideological obsession on all sides.Most of the "liberals" I know, do NOT want to "talk" with terrorists, negotiate with them, or anything of the kind. Most want a bullet in bin-Laden's head just as I presume you do. Claiming that all liberals want to negotiate with terrorists is a straw man, simply because they don't all want to.

xxkayxx

[quote=buzz2;29071]Hmm, well you do have a point there. Only problem is, for some people , no matter how hard they may work, "bad luck" might just be on their side, and government support would be something they need, more than others. And you can't just "move out of the bad areas", at least not in majority.

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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing

debdodd

I won't totally disagree with Buzz on this one (surprise Buzz!)

There is a considerable amount of welfare fraud ... more than any of us wants BUT there are plenty more who utilize the programs who really need it. The government is trying to break the cycle of welfare ....

Buzz, I just don't think you've heard much about it .... many states are doing this ...* they are "welfare to work" programs and tho' they are not totally successful they are a step in the right direction .... when I taught at a local vocational college a year ago .... many of my students were welfare Moms and kids from lower socioeconomic backgrounds .... I was teaching them to be Medical assistants .... as you know there is a nationwide shortage of nurses so they are filling the lower ranks of the medical echelon with medical assistants .... I have found that given a chance of an honorable profession they will take the leap and work towards bettering themselves ....

it's the whole "why don't you go work at flipping burgers" mentality that some people have that gives them a sense of being a loser if they work at one of those type of jobs .....*

Buzz, here's a "for instance" for you ..... you and I were both in the military so you know how everyone in basic training has to pull KP duty .... well for me it was worse than a 20 mile hike because everyone always made fun of who ever had KP duty, that whole hazing thing .... well as long as I didn't have to pull front line KP I didn't mind .... as long as my peers didn't see me flinging hash I was fine .... I'd volunteer for any scut job in the back of the kitchen as long as I didn't have to be in the front line serving to get heckled by my peers ..... it's sll about respect Buzz ... sometimes it's all these kids have left to them .... they want and deserve dignity and respect, they didn't ask to be born to a welfare Mom .....

they are already poor, seen their Moms getting food stamps, living in cockroach rat infested section 8 housing, eating government cheese, shopping at Goodwill, etc .... you think they aren't embarrassed? think they don't care? given a chance many of them will take it but if we treat them like crap while we are giving them a hand up out of urban blight or if we act like we are doing charity work, looking down our noses at them .... well frankly all it breeds is resentment .... they think we are clueless about how they live when we are trying to help them, they hate being poor, they are embarrassed that they are another generation of welfare kids ....
some of them find the internal fortitude to help themselves out of that cycle but of course not all, after all they are only kids, with a kid's reasoning skills....

if you are as sick of the flaws in welfare system as you act like ... then start mentoring an inner city kid, be a big brother to someone .... stop bitching about all the wrongs out there and be proactive ..... it's not about electing the right male or female into the presidency .... it has to be a "grass roots" effort by all of us who pay taxes and damn it if you fail with one kid, don't give up, take on another on, and another ....

Buzz, go out and be act christian, extend a helping hand to a child, a young man or woman before welfare gets it's hold on them!!!! The odds are against you helping an adult welfare recipient around but YOU can make a difference with young people, it's about helping not lecturing them, not preaching god to them .... it's about showing them, teaching, mentoring them so that the cycle is broken one kid at a time ....

we will never, ever get any where with welfare reform unless all of us are willing to step up to the plate and do something .... hell anything other than lip service to how bad everything is ..... I adopted a child from the inner city, his biological Mom died from a Crack overdose 2 years ago .... I helped break the cycle of a next generation welfare child 17 years ago ... and I did it with others when I taught school and still mentor kids presently ...

now I'm not telling you to go out and adopt a kid but I am telling you to take some of the time you spend on this forum bitching about all the wrongs of society and instead use part of that time to go out there and help make a difference in this world or is it just easier for you to complain?

I think it is .... oh you may talk about how you volunteer with Veterans and such but try and give an hour or two a week on inner city projects .... you might make a difference in one kids life .... and if everyone made a difference in just one kid's life we might be able to break the cycle of generational welfare recipients in a generation or two .... but seriously stop complaining .... go out and try and help fix it ..... friggin arm chair quarter backs .... I know plenty of them .... they all want to complain about all the rotten crap in life but they never want to help make a difference ..... to walk the walk instead of just talk the talk ....

I challenge you (any and all of you in fact!) .... you in particular Buzz .... to go out there and help a young person ... just one .... do it out of wanting to make changes .... not preaching about God 'cause most of them think god has abandoned them .... do it not because it's the morally right thing to do, leave religion out of the equation .... do it simply because you have the power to make a difference .... it's the right thing to do .... step up to the plate and all the other cliches .... but just do it one kid at a time!

Okay .... the end of my diatribe on "stop being an arm chair quarter back and get off your lazy ass and make a difference" rhetoric ... oh and don't give me the BS that you already do plenty .... while I've been off work recuperating I see how much time you spend on forum so I know you have free time to go out and mentor someone!!!!

Buzz, Make an effort to fix it or stop bitching is all I ask of you ..... Deb

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"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

PsiCop

Clarification: ALL states have "welfare to work" programs. ALL welfare participants in the US are in such programs. This has been the case since the welfare reforms of '95 and '96, which the GOP, led by Newt Gingrich, pushed for when they took control of Congress in the mid-term elections of '94. Another feature of these reforms is a lifetime cap on welfare benefits ... 24 months, I believe. The capstone of these reforms was the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act which President Clinton signed in 1996.

It is, quite simply, a myth that an American can spend his/her life on welfare. This is no longer possible. They may keep getting some benefits, but will have to work while they do so (with the amount of said benefit reduced by their earnings).

If any Right-winger has a problem with welfare as it now exists in the US, s/he should remember that the current system was crafted by their own friend Newt Gingrich and was NOT designed by "liberals."That it is, indeed. The Right-wing myth that people are poor because they WANT to be -- because anyone who works sufficiently is automatically successful and wealthy (meaning anyone who is neither, simply is not working hard enough!) -- is, as I posted earlier, merely a rationale for not helping others.

That's right ... a rationale. Every bit as much a rationale as Christians using Matthew 26:11 to justify not being charitable. (In this verse Jesus said, "For you always have the poor with you; but you do not always have Me"). Of course, the very idea of a non-charitable or anti-charitable Christian seems absurd to many of us, and in fact it IS rather odd since many forms of Christianity center on poverty (either self-imposed as in the mendicant movement or in poverty-relief efforts). But there ARE Christians in the world who do, truly, believe the poor are the poor because they have "asked for it" and deserve to be poor, while the wealthy are wealthy because they are righteous and divinely-ordained to have wealth. This concept is known generally as prosperity theology, and has other labels within certain contexts (e.g. it's called "word of faith" among Pentecostalists).

(As a student of history I find myself wondering what people like Francis of Assisi would have thought about these "prosperity gospel" preachers.)

At any rate, don't be fooled by all this Right-wing blustering over "liberals" and welfare. There is no longer any chance to be on welfare for life without working, and that's because Republicans, not "liberals," designed the welfare system we've had for the last 12 years. The Right-wing uses this myth to justify holding both the poor and "liberals" in contempt, dishonestly of course.