The Fair Tax - Page 4

buzz2 · 05-07-2008, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debdodd

where in the hell did I ever say that I was a democrat? stop your stupid arguing all the time and get rid of the chip on your shoulder!! I vote independent ... I don't vote party ...never have ... never will!

Stop already! I never said I agreed with taxes .... stop judging me! what the hell! a few people disagree with you and then everyone that posts here is a tree hugging democrat .... you piss me off with how narrow minded, how damn judgemental you are with out having the facts about people ....

you must be a moron (I'm not saying you are a moron but if you think I've reached the ripe old age of 26? 29? or what ever age I am today, then you just "might" be a huge moron).... if you think I haven't seen abuses of the welfare system you'd be wrong ...

I've taken care of plenty of crack whore's kids, not the kid's fault but they still deserve the care so that while the system is flawed it does some good ... what should we do with the kids buzz? put them in jail with their addicted parents ... put them to sleep like a diseased dog ... unless you have solutions stop bitching all the time .... come up with solutions for a change, let's hear how you would fix it or are you just better at complaining about it all the time?

Now stop for a minute and read your posts ..... are you just wanting to fight all the time .... damn buzz ... you can have all the righteous indignation you want but vent it in a healthy way and stop labeling people unless you have the friggin facts!

so before you go off on a rant again ..... look back at your posts and reread how you pick a fight with everyone ... damn, take a break before you have a heart attack or a stroke!

You have no idea if I live in a huge house or am queen of a double wide so stop making assumptions about everyone .... you don't know anything about me or anyone else just because of a few posts here! You don't even know if I have a job .... hell I could be recovering from cancer ..... my house could be in foreclosure, I could be widowed or my husband disabled, maxed out all my credit cards, closed out my 401K just to make ends meet and ready for bankruptcy or life could be great, great job, lots of money ...... but you wouldn't know would you? Hell no, you want to make up things in your head to label people however suits you ..... so which of the ones do you think are true ... the miserable ones or that my life is all rosy and perfect?

Like I said quit being such a miserable old phart! Jeez you really are a narrow minded man!

Sorry Deb for calling you a Democrat. My mistake for just ASSUMING. So I guess that makes ME the ASS in ASSUMING. I only thought that because of the way you carried on about the Hildabeast. And the way you look at social issues. I guess a better word would be liberal? No... that's a bad word too. Oh, I know. It's Progressive now. That's the word yall are using now. Sorry.
You're right again. I DON'T know how you live. Never said I did. I was just trying to make my point. All be it, maybe a bit too strongly, looking back on it now. But, I think I HAVE made my point. That was, Stop trying to take money out of my pocket to give to other people. Let me decide to whom I want to make donations. THAT'S the DEMOCRAT way. I mean PROGRESSIVE. And No I don't want to fight with you. But, you seem to take on this condecending tone MOST of the time, not all but most,.. when you're addressing ME. So, maybe it's just that both of us are at different ends of the spectrum on how we view the world. I can't help that. I will try to take that into account when addressing you in the future and try to temper my remarks accordingly. If you can afford me the same courtesy. Enough with the name calling & labeling from both sides. OK? OK.

romansh · 05-07-2008, 07:35 PM

Having lived in three countries, on three continents, and two of them with and without a GST or a VAT. The conclusion (for me) is, "don't make much difference."

There are (should be) sliding tax scales .... ie luxury goods would have a high tax rate.
food, medications and kids clothes zero tax
(caviar would count as a luxury)

as all of you intimated ... it's important that once the goverment gets hold of the tax dollar, they should spend it wisely.

Now if we could only agree on what 'wisely' is.

PsiCop · 05-08-2008, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pseudonous

However, to say "the less fortunate can invest just the same as the wealthier can." and "Everyone... has the same opportunities..." is not entirely accurate. There are most certainly differences in opportunities between the rich and the poor. Yet, I don't think we will ever have a perfect system so let me skip to my main point.

Looks like you've run into what I call "the myth of equality of opportunity." This is something the Right propagates most often, but many libertarians do, too. This myth claims that we all have "equality of opportunity," and leads to a frequent conclusion, that the reason some are not as well-off as others, is because they have not worked hard enough. A corollary conclusion these folk reach, is that the wealthy are that way solely because they worked hard.

This is a "myth" because it is so obviously untrue. Anyone born into wealth, clearly has MANY more opportunities than someone born in a run-down slum or hardscrabble Appalachia. To claim otherwise is simply laughable. Also, many of the wealthy did not, in fact, ever work at all, or if they did work, they did so with the leverage of their inheritance. An example of someone whom many people believe was "self-made," Donald Trump, actually was not "self-made." His father was a well-to-do real-estate mogul in his own right; the Donald attended good private schools, getting his MBA from Wharton. And his first job out of Wharton was ... working for his father, whose company he eventually took over, becoming the "core" of his empire.

"Self-made"? No way! Poor people do not have the triple advantages of private schools, college and Wharton, then going to work for daddy's bustling business.

I know many people who are smart, work hard (sometimes over 60 hours a week!), yet who can barely make ends meet ... and NOT because they're profligate. If "working hard" were the sole measure of success and wealth, they'd be millionaires.

But they aren't. Because "working hard" is not enough. There is a great deal more involved, above and beyond even heritage, education, background, etc. Sometimes just plain luck is at play.

Let's face it ... the national sales tax which goes by the name of "fair" is pretty much just a way for the wealthy to shift the overall tax burden away from themselves. Instead of paying up to 36% of what they earn, they'd pay 23% on their purchases. It is absurdly obvious that many wealthy people would make out like bandits, under such a scheme.

Really, the "myth of equality of opportunity" is really a Right-wing (and as I said, sometimes libertarian) rationale for dismissing the poor as simply having not done enough to help themselves.

shadowind · 05-08-2008, 09:05 PM

we need equality of opportunity, or at least to improve the base opportunity.

duck · 05-08-2008, 10:00 PM

The true libertarian view is that there is no such thing as equality of opportunity. However, there should also be no governmental imposition of any encumbrances on the opportunities that do exist.

pseudonous · 05-08-2008, 10:48 PM

I agree with duck. As a libertarian myself I never believed in "equality of opportunity". At least not as it is commonly used. Though sometimes people say that everyone has the same opportunity and there is some truth in this. It is just that "same" is a fairly ambiguous term. It could me identical or just similar.

buzz2 · 05-09-2008, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsiCop

Quote:

Originally Posted by pseudonous

However, to say "the less fortunate can invest just the same as the wealthier can." and "Everyone... has the same opportunities..." is not entirely accurate. There are most certainly differences in opportunities between the rich and the poor. Yet, I don't think we will ever have a perfect system so let me skip to my main point.

Looks like you've run into what I call "the myth of equality of opportunity." This is something the Right propagates most often, but many libertarians do, too. This myth claims that we all have "equality of opportunity," and leads to a frequent conclusion, that the reason some are not as well-off as others, is because they have not worked hard enough. A corollary conclusion these folk reach, is that the wealthy are that way solely because they worked hard.

This is a "myth" because it is so obviously untrue. Anyone born into wealth, clearly has MANY more opportunities than someone born in a run-down slum or hardscrabble Appalachia. To claim otherwise is simply laughable. Also, many of the wealthy did not, in fact, ever work at all, or if they did work, they did so with the leverage of their inheritance. An example of someone whom many people believe was "self-made," Donald Trump, actually was not "self-made." His father was a well-to-do real-estate mogul in his own right; the Donald attended good private schools, getting his MBA from Wharton. And his first job out of Wharton was ... working for his father, whose company he eventually took over, becoming the "core" of his empire.

"Self-made"? No way! Poor people do not have the triple advantages of private schools, college and Wharton, then going to work for daddy's bustling business.

I know many people who are smart, work hard (sometimes over 60 hours a week!), yet who can barely make ends meet ... and NOT because they're profligate. If "working hard" were the sole measure of success and wealth, they'd be millionaires.

But they aren't. Because "working hard" is not enough. There is a great deal more involved, above and beyond even heritage, education, background, etc. Sometimes just plain luck is at play.

Let's face it ... the national sales tax which goes by the name of "fair" is pretty much just a way for the wealthy to shift the overall tax burden away from themselves. Instead of paying up to 36% of what they earn, they'd pay 23% on their purchases. It is absurdly obvious that many wealthy people would make out like bandits, under such a scheme.

Really, the "myth of equality of opportunity" is really a Right-wing (and as I said, sometimes libertarian) rationale for dismissing the poor as simply having not done enough to help themselves.

Equal opportunity is not a myth. You must CREATE your own opportunities. Just for example... You have a garage sale. There's always folks out there that will want to buy other folks' "junk" items. Then, you take whatever profits you've made from that garage sale. Go out and buy some more "junk" from somewhere else. Eventually, building up your inventory. Pretty soon you have enough to open up a "thrift store" or an "antique store", which ever way you would like to go with it. Success!!! Another entrepenuer is in business. Then, along comes the govt. to STEAL your profits from you in the form of more taxes. In so, discouraging the new business owner. You just need a little gumption and an idea to create your own opportunity. Capitalism.
EQUAL OPPORTUNITY for ALL.
Your way,.. the LIBERAL way,.. is that you need for the govt. and the public to take care of you. You're not smart enough to think up an idea to create your own wealth, so just TAKE it from those that do have it. It's easier and you don't have to do anything except maybe fill out a couple forms and sit back and wait for the govt. handouts to start flowing in. Yeah, that's great.
Heck, those right wingers don't deserve that money anyway!!! Why do they need so much money?!! I want Hillary or Osama-Obama to go and take it from those dirty, rich, capitalist, conservative, republican, scum!!!!
This is how we as conservatives, ( I didn't say Republicans), see it. Instead of thinking everyone owes it to you, you should get out there and find your fortune. It CAN be done. No matter what your circumstances are.
You don't have to be made to feel guilty for wanting to better yourself and your life. THINK!!! Maybe you LIBS can come up with a way to make a dollar on your own instead of leaching off of everyone else and thinking that the govt. needs to take care of you your whole life. The opportunities are there.
You just need to create them. Get a job for starters. Don't tell me there aren't any out there either. You can sell flowers on the street corner if you want to. But, you've got to want to first. Oh, is that beneath you? OK. Go flip some burgers at McDonalds then. Point is, you've got to want to work. There are even jobs out there for handicapped folks. Want to work!!!

duck · 05-09-2008, 12:20 PM

Og, I would suggest that if this persona cannot carry on a debate without hurling insults that a

might be in order?

Of course, calling me a liberal isn't really an insult, its a compliment.

buzz2 · 05-09-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duck

Og, I would suggest that if this persona cannot carry on a debate without hurling insults that a

might be in order?

Of course, calling me a liberal isn't really an insult, its a compliment.

Sorry Duck. I keep forgetting that you all don't like being called "liberal" any more. It's "progressive" now. Right? Either way. They both are the same animal in the political realm. Unless yall have gone and changed it again. Either way, the whole "progressive" ideal is wrong and bad for the country.
In my "humble" opinion that is. Besides, I never directed my comments directly at you personally. Since when does the word "liberal" equate to an insult? Unless it's directed at a bunch of "conservatives". Is that why they changed what they call themselves to "progressives"? I really wanna know. The way I see it, there wasn't one insult even made. Just the facts as I perceive them to be.

duck · 05-09-2008, 01:55 PM

And the people that have followed and worshipped at the alter of the NeoCon/theocracy viewpoint have gotten this country in the mess its in now, with the idiot president we have, so how is a more liberal approach wrong? Especially a classically liberal approach to government?