All Three Are The Same, But Different - Page 8

**debdodd** · 05-10-2008, 11:50 PM

No child left behind ... what a joke ... let's just dummy down everything so they can pass a set of tests ....

I know what you mean .... many kids can write research papers but cannot write a meaningful letter to their Grandmothers ..... ask them to write on something out of the blue, off the top of their head and they can't.

That's what I meant by creative writing class .... to be able to sit down and write down thoughts without books to reference ..... thinking on their own and getting that thought from their head to a piece of paper.

I love being able to just start writing about anything, pulling words and thoughts out of my head, putting all of it together, having long conversations without an audio sound track for inflection purposes ....

Now who woulda thunk that one of me? You can see that I never write anything but short comments on this forum

You're right ... it's time to call it a night! Later

Deb

Jodou1 · 05-11-2008, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duck

Quote:

Originally Posted by debdodd

Good idea .... I think it should be mandatory for high school kids to take creative writing courses! I've recently read some of the essays kids do for their college applications they are* p-i-t-i-f-u-l! .... they sound like "see spot run, spot runs fast" As you know the SAT's have a section for essay writing and I hear that they are horrible ... especially the boys .... girls are a little better but barely ..... With all of Alex's great grades he still has trouble putting thought to paper ... he can do an improvised, on the spot topic of conversation but ask him to sit and write one out and he's chewing the eraser off the pencil trying to think of something ....Why is that? I'm asking seriously .... why is it that if you ask a teenager a question or state something that they disagree with, they can go on for ever about how you are wrong and how they are right on almost any subject but trying to get them to write spontaneously freestyle and they fold or write like 6 year olds?I am glad the colleges are requesting that kids write more. I don't think it's a matter of punctuation, etc as it is just getting them to write actual complex, meaningful sentences.

That is because we are not teaching and reinforcing the importance of the structure and importance of organizational strategies for the different modes of writing: Expository, Persuasive, Descriptive, Narrative, and Reflective. Too many schools are using a curriculum that tells a kid to "write an essay" without teaching them what type of essay is needed for the question or how to organize it.

Creative writing? I hate to say this, but that is a total waste of my time with the students I'm getting in the twelfth grade that can't even write a proper introductory paragraph because they don't carry proper knowledge of this basic skill through the grades!! Case in point: We were having a meeting with our local middle school language arts teachers, and we from the high school were bemoaning the horrible paragraph structure and organizational skills our students were bringing with them. One of the worst teachers in our district jumped up and cried, "I don't know what you people think you want! We have our eighth graders writing 10 page research papers, and you don't think they can write!!! What is it you want us to teach?" I sat there, looked over at a colleague who I greatly respect. He looked at me, I looked at him and we both said in unison: "Teach sentences, paragraphs, and modes of writing!"

She stormed out of the meeting in tears. My colleague and I were called on the carpet by the middle school principal, who just happened to be facilitating the meeting. Thankfully, our principal backed us up.

Everybody wants to teach the home run paper any more and not teach fundamental basics! Guess what I have to teach the seniors I get? :P Then, don't even get me started on the dang No Child Left Behind tests (one of the idiot in chief's stupider laws) and what that does to middle and high school instruction!

Ok, end of rant.

Night, all!

Ok I am still incredibly off topic(I'm becoming a thread terrorist) but I have to agree. Writing is something that has interested me since my senior year in highschool when I found out that I not only had a small aptitude for it, but actually enjoyed it.

As with many things if you don't have the basics firmly understood you won't go too far. That is where I fear I lack the most, even if it was good enough to get me honors for graduation.

I've tried many different types of writing and oddly enough while creative writing is the most appealing to me, I find it is what I am the worst at and even find it a bit tedious. A close second would be editorials(I'm opinionated, and actually enjoy these).

I'm even in the process of trying to write a novel(who isn't?). This is what has taught me that I lack(at least in my own assessment) all of the proper skills to write a cohesive and clear story. Nine chapters in I still find myself constantly scrapping entire chapters because they suck.

Hey Mr. Duck, grade my book!

duck · 05-11-2008, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Hey Mr. Duck, grade my book!

NO!!

The secret lies in knowing the use of plot, and planning everything in advance. Avoiding cliche and making sure your characters fit the setting, etc. etc.

But, no, I will not grade your book.

Nothing personal, or in any way to put you down, but no!

Jodou1 · 05-11-2008, 12:53 AM

WHat if I throw an apple into the deal? Teachers like those, I saw it on T.V.

duck · 05-11-2008, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodou1

WHat if I throw an apple into the deal? Teachers like those, I saw it on T.V.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Nice try, my young friend!

**debdodd** · 05-11-2008, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodou1

I'm even in the process of trying to write a novel(who isn't?).* This is what has taught me that I lack(at least in my own assessment) all of the proper skills to write a cohesive and clear story.* Nine chapters in I still find myself constantly scrapping entire chapters because they suck.Hey Mr. Duck, grade my book!

Just keep writing .. don't worry about the grammar .... if the story line is good, if the story itself is good then who(m?) ever you find to publish it will edit the hell out of it .

I'm not sure where you live but there are writer's workshops nationwide and there are college students (a lot of times they are English grad students) who hire out to edit books .... if you really are serious about the writing process there is plenty of ways to go about it ....

I think we have several writers of this forum .... I think some are published, some are not .... I believe Astrja (sp) is a writer ..... I, like you, am writing .... 15 chapters and I think I rewrote chapter 8 a zillion times before I realize that I was interfering with the creative process .... just stop going over the same chapter obsessing over nuances .... finish it out, stop rereading that one chapter, once the book/novel is all done then it is the time to go back and fix the rough spots ..... your way just keep running into a wall ... write daily even if it's only 15 minutes of writing .... make sure it's fresh writing ... not going over the past writings .... seriously join a support group for writers .... it helps .... just an opinion ....

Jodou1 · 05-12-2008, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debdodd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodou1

I'm even in the process of trying to write a novel(who isn't?).* This is what has taught me that I lack(at least in my own assessment) all of the proper skills to write a cohesive and clear story.* Nine chapters in I still find myself constantly scrapping entire chapters because they suck.Hey Mr. Duck, grade my book!

Just keep writing .. don't worry about the grammar .... if the story line is good, if the story itself is good then who(m?) ever you find to publish it will edit the hell out of it .

I'm not sure where you live but there are writer's workshops nationwide and there are college students (a lot of times they are English grad students) who hire out to edit books .... if you really are serious about the writing process there is plenty of ways to go about it ....

I think we have several writers of this forum .... I think some are published, some are not .... I believe Astrja (sp) is a writer ..... I, like you, am writing .... 15 chapters and I think I rewrote chapter 8 a zillion times before I realize that I was interfering with the creative process .... just stop going over the same chapter obsessing over nuances .... finish it out, stop rereading that one chapter, once the book/novel is all done then it is the time to go back and fix the rough spots ..... your way just keep running into a wall ... write daily even if it's only 15 minutes of writing .... make sure it's fresh writing ... not going over the past writings .... seriously join a support group for writers .... it helps .... just an opinion ....

I'm writing a fantasy novel, so I have had to try and erect everything from nothingness. The societies and cultures of the different areas, a religion(and they're not even the bad guys...in the first book :X). Character development is something I need to work on.

In the end you're probably right, I should just get it all out and then worry about fleshing it out and nit picking.

Maybe we need a thread for writers...so I can stop Hijacking everyone.

buzz2 · 05-12-2008, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duck

Quote:

Originally Posted by debdodd

Good idea .... I think it should be mandatory for high school kids to take creative writing courses! I've recently read some of the essays kids do for their college applications they are* p-i-t-i-f-u-l! .... they sound like "see spot run, spot runs fast" As you know the SAT's have a section for essay writing and I hear that they are horrible ... especially the boys .... girls are a little better but barely ..... With all of Alex's great grades he still has trouble putting thought to paper ... he can do an improvised, on the spot topic of conversation but ask him to sit and write one out and he's chewing the eraser off the pencil trying to think of something ....Why is that? I'm asking seriously .... why is it that if you ask a teenager a question or state something that they disagree with, they can go on for ever about how you are wrong and how they are right on almost any subject but trying to get them to write spontaneously freestyle and they fold or write like 6 year olds?I am glad the colleges are requesting that kids write more. I don't think it's a matter of punctuation, etc as it is just getting them to write actual complex, meaningful sentences.

That is because we are not teaching and reinforcing the importance of the structure and importance of organizational strategies for the different modes of writing: Expository, Persuasive, Descriptive, Narrative, and Reflective. Too many schools are using a curriculum that tells a kid to "write an essay" without teaching them what type of essay is needed for the question or how to organize it.

Creative writing? I hate to say this, but that is a total waste of my time with the students I'm getting in the twelfth grade that can't even write a proper introductory paragraph because they don't carry proper knowledge of this basic skill through the grades!! Case in point: We were having a meeting with our local middle school language arts teachers, and we from the high school were bemoaning the horrible paragraph structure and organizational skills our students were bringing with them. One of the worst teachers in our district jumped up and cried, "I don't know what you people think you want! We have our eighth graders writing 10 page research papers, and you don't think they can write!!! What is it you want us to teach?" I sat there, looked over at a colleague who I greatly respect. He looked at me, I looked at him and we both said in unison: "Teach sentences, paragraphs, and modes of writing!"

She stormed out of the meeting in tears. My colleague and I were called on the carpet by the middle school principal, who just happened to be facilitating the meeting. Thankfully, our principal backed us up.

Everybody wants to teach the home run paper any more and not teach fundamental basics! Guess what I have to teach the seniors I get? :P Then, don't even get me started on the dang No Child Left Behind tests (one of the idiot in chief's stupider laws) and what that does to middle and high school instruction!

Ok, end of rant.

Night, all!

STUPIDER? Come on professor. Is that even a word? And you're knocking Bush, calling Him an idiot? I believe the term is "MORE STUPID". Now you know what the problem is with the students... it's the teachers! Heck, I've only got a high school education from over 30 years ago and I at least know how to spell and use proper grammar. When you all start getting it right, then maybe you can expect your students to do the same. You guys don't even try to impress on them the importance in basic spelling anymore. You're passing on students that can't even spell. Good Job Geniuses.

duck · 05-12-2008, 06:53 AM

Yes, genius with the high school education, "stupider" is a word.

Why is it my fault, five states away, that your kid can't read or write to your standards?

However, there are some things in that post that I can't disagree with, no matter how insulting you are trying to be. Yes, certain aspects of education leave me scratching my head. Spelling, vocabulary development, penmanship, sentence structure, paragraph structure.... All of these things are terribly lacking in our schools. Why? I'm really not sure. All I know from the literacy acquisition workshops and classes I have been taking over the last several years say one thing regarding the above, but the practice in the classroom is totally another.

I have to agree with Buzz, teachers have become lazy with too much technology in the classroom, and student literacy is suffering. Or, just possibly is it that we have so much pressure put on us with the sanctions involved with the requirements of No Child Left Behind that we aren't teaching what is necessary for life, and instead are focusing on the tests to protect our funding and our jobs?

buzz2 · 05-12-2008, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debdodd

Duck, I figured you for a civics or history teacher but no way did I think an English teacher!!! In our state (at least Alex's school) they teach English (the grammar portion) only until their freshman year and then it all literature from then on ....

next year it's AP multicultural literature, another AP English Class, AP Greek, AP Latin ... let's see uh ... oh yeah statistics and some kind of calculus class .... senior year of high school .... I bet he doesn't get to go out and play with the other kids very much next year!!!

He want s a tattoo and I told him if he stated on high honors then he could get one (hell he's only getting a little ankh ... but why tell him it wouldn't bother me when I can work it so he pulls another year of 3.8??? no dumb Mom here!)

OOOPPPPPSSSS! So sorry but you guys know I love my kid off the charts and brag far to much about him ... my bad ....totally off topic but it better than reading buzz gay bashing!

Buzz, BTW, I've had Alex at Gay and Transgendered parades since he was about 8 years old and it hasn't turned him into a flaming drag queen he's totally hetero .... (caught him kissing a couple of them and they call all the time) .... so guess what ?????? Gay isn't contagious, you nor your children or even grand kids will catch "it" ..... so if one of your grand kids or kids came "out" what would you do? disown them? take them for reprogramming? I'll bet money that you have gay folks in your family tree .... statistics would show you that but of course knowing how outspoken homophobic you are I'm sure that they stay as far back in the closet as possible around you!

Better watch out Buzz ... God's gonna get you 'cause only he is allowed to judge! So I guess I'll see you in hell .... I'll be sure and keep your spot warm ... cause if there is a hell my punishement will be to sit in hell next to a card carrying bigot like you! said with much love buzz, much love ...... eh?

HMMM. OK Debdumb,

First of all. Try not to break your arm patting yourself on the back so much.
OK. I will concede. I might just have a "homo" or two somewhere down the lineage. I don't know. Don't want to know. I prefer not to know. So what. It doesn't affect me in any way. Now, if one of my boys turns out to be "gay",.. well, there's nothing I can or would do. He's still my son. I would love them no matter what. I would just disagree with his lifestyle. It's not me who's judging. It is GOD. Even if you think you're "gay", the bible says you're supposed to resist those urges and ask for GOD'S help.
As for the bigot comment, you can hang that in your @$$. You are just as bigoted as you think I am. Only your bigotry is toward Christians. If by your definition, you mean intolerant and closed-minded. You shouldn't throw stones, since you live in that glass house. And yes, I'm not so backward as to think that "homoness" is contagious. I didn't bother to think about it but, if you're having those urges and feel that you're turning "gay", I'm sorry for offending you. You are right about one thing though,.. you will be going to hell if you don't change your ways. But, you're wrong about seeing me there. I know that I have a place in heaven next to the FATHER. Said with much love Deb. Much love.