All Three Are The Same, But Different - Page 6

buzz2 · 05-05-2008, 06:46 AM

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Originally Posted by PsiCop

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Originally Posted by buzz2

Which would you rather have? Extreme liberal, moderate liberal, or slightly liberal? That's what you get with Obama, Clinton, or McCain. I don't like either one of them.
I don't like Obama because of his bigotry. Don't like "The Hilldabeast" because of her socialized healthcare plan. Don't like McCain because he's not being totally honest about his policies and his beliefs, judging from his past record of liberalism. Trying to pass himself off as a conservative.
No one even knows what Obama is really about. What has he accomplished in his short time in the senate? Nothing. He's the most liberal person in the senate. Even worse than Kennedy. That's BAD!!
As for Hillary,.. her record speaks for itself. Just look at her past. When she was helping to run her husband's presidency, she helped to screw that up. Like "HillaryCare". What a JOKE that was. I don't want "socialized medicine". I want to be able to choose which Dr. I'm going to get care from. Not the government making that choice for me. Under her plan, if I go and get a Dr. on my own and pay for it out of my own pocket, both the Dr. and I would be prosecuted for breaking the law. Socialized healthcare doesn't work. Just ask the Canadians.
As for McCain,.. look at the McCain/Feingold law. Or the McCain/Kennedy education law. Too darn liberal for me. He likes to make nicey nice with the libs on the other side of the aisle. Not very conservative. Now he's trying to pass himself off as conservative though. So, you can't trust any of them to be honest. Although I think McCain would be the best choice when it comes to national defense. That's it.
So, whom would yall choose and why?
Maybe one of you could tell me what all the fuss is about with Obama. Why is he so appealing? 'Cause the way I see it, he's just be another Jimmy Carter weak kneed, coward. An appeaser to the tyrants of the world. Totally ineffective. And Hillary,.. Well, she just is plain scary.
Maybe I'll go with a third party candidate. If there is one. Hopefully a Libertarian.

I don't like any of them because the "two-party system," which produced them, is NOT really a "two-party" system. It's really ONE party ... a cabal or elite of folks who are plundering the nation ... cleverly cloaked behind a veneer of ideological opposition.

Sound paranoid? Like a conspiracy theory or something? Perhaps the above is too strong a description. I have no doubt that SOME of our leaders really do believe in the ideologies they espouse and truly consider themselves opposed to the other. I guess what I mean is that, for all intents and purposes, they may as well all be working together to plunder the US because the bottom line is, that's what they're effectively doing.

At any rate, they all have their heads up their behinds about some things. The idea that healthcare can be reformed by the "free market" as McCain and others on the Right suppose, is ludicrous on its face because, aside from some elective procedures, the "free market" never comes into play. Lives are at stake so there is no chance for someone to avail him/herself of "market forces." Markets work only when there's competition, and the buyer can price suppliers. But when (for example) you're in the throes of a heart attack, you're in no position to "shop around" for the best price on an ambulance, an ER, an attending doctor, etc. Rather than do that, you're just going to call 911 and let them take you to whatever place will save your life at that moment. Shopping around is not possible.

There are many more ideas that both Left and Right espouse which also don't take rocket-science to debunk. In the end, none of them has any vested interest in solving any problem, because once they solved problems, they put themselves out of work ... and they're not about to do that!

EXACTLY!!!!! The only way to fix it, is for the people to take back their govt. By force if necessary. But it needs to get back to a govt for the people, by the people. Get rid of the career politicians in D.C. by instituting term limits in congress and the senate. But, I don't think the majority of Americans have the interest nor the stomach to do anything about it.

**debdodd** · 05-05-2008, 07:24 AM

now you're saying we should take our government back by "force" if necessary .... jeez Buzz ... what next ... civil war in the states?

You have got to be the most radical individual I've talked to in a while!

buzz2 · 05-05-2008, 07:56 AM

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Originally Posted by debdodd

now you're saying we should take our government back by "force" if necessary .... jeez Buzz ... what next ... civil war in the states?

You have got to be the most radical individual I've talked to in a while!

Yes Deb. By force "IF NECESSARY". The founding fathers saw the possibility of force. That's one of the reasons for the right to bare arms. I don't believe it to be radical for wanting our govt. to be the way it was originally intended.
Sure, I don't WANT it to come to force. I said "if necessary". I want our country back. Not the one where the U.N. dictates how they think it should be run. If we allow that, we lose our sovereignty. We just become another European Union. I don't want that. If the politicians don't listen to the will of the people, then we MUST make them listen. NO, I DON'T want a "civil war".
But, I would willingly fight to preserve what our nation was intended to be.
I don't think that's so radical. Patriotic maybe.
I really don't like what alot of yall say but, I'll fight to the death if need be, for you to keep the right to say it. Wouldn't you? I would hope so.
I see our nation spiraling downward into this "Sodom and Gomorrah" sort of society. And I think it's gonna come back and bite us if we don't try to fix it.
Everyones rights are slowly being taken away bit by bit. So slowly that no one is taking notice. Or some folks just don't seem to care. As long as the govt. is there to "take care of us" mentallity. I don't want the govt. to take care of me. As a matter of fact, I'd like it if the govt. just left us alone.

**Skepticologist** · 05-07-2008, 05:18 PM

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Originally Posted by romansh

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Originally Posted by Skepticologist

Have you noticed that hard-core fundamentalists rarely stick around these kinds of forums for more than a couple of weeks? It's quite obvious that that don't log on with open minds. I really think getting online and doing battle with those of us who insist on reason and logic as the basis for our beliefs is sort of a badge of courage for them.

Hi Skept ... I know what you mean .... but we all have our motivations.
In my intro I promised a month ..... seven months later .. I'm still here.
My wife still thinks I spend way too much time here. She's probably right ... I need to get a life.

Regarding the fundamentalists ... we are not going to convert them now. I think it is like you 'said', they are here as a test of faith. The question for me is, can we plant a seed of doubt. And if so, what is the best tool ..... a bit of nurture or a base ball bat? ..

all the best

Some very interesting and well-taken points. Your reply brought to mind my sister, who 8 years ago was about as staunch a fundamentalist as you could hope to, or hope not to, encounter. Despite my prescient warnings, she toed the neo-con line, even to the point of holding George W. Bush out to be some kind of modern-day Messiah because he said he'd been "born again" and that he prayed every day. I was completely ineffectual in influencing her vote in either the 2000 or 2004 elections.

But a couple of weeks ago, she blew me away by informing me that she's now, just as staunchly, an Obama supporter. To quote a tired old Christian hymn, she has "seen the light". Which is all well and good for now. But I have no doubt that, once the economy gets through with its current dips and loops at the behest of the elusive business cycle, she'll be right back to lambasting the welfare state (despite being scantly more than one paycheck away from joining its ranks), pushing for tort reform (thereby effectively closing off the only viable recourse she'd have should the powers that be decide they want to add her pitifully small resources to their millions and billions), and villifying anyone who's not exactly like her (or at least who's unlike the people her children have turned out to be).

I think you can see that I'm not particularly optimistic about the prospects for the enlightenment of the fundamentalists. It will be transitory at its very best. Consequently, I think you're pretty much right in your assessment that the best we can do is to continue planting "seeds of doubt", so that, at least at junctures such as the one at present, which can be loosely considered "teachable moments", we might inject at least a modicum of common sense into the equation.

NotConvinced · 05-10-2008, 04:03 AM

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Originally Posted by Astreja

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Originally Posted by buzz2

Socialized healthcare doesn't work. Just ask the Canadians.

*ahem* I got X-rays and an MRI for an injured knee, for free.

I don't have to pay for checkups.

My partner spent a week in the hospital for a cholecystectomy and treatment of pancreatitis, and it didn't cost her a cent.

No problems at our end.

Grass always seems to be greener.

My inlaws from France aren't too happy with the system there.

Though they love the 35 hour work weeks...

Jodou1 · 05-10-2008, 07:56 AM

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Originally Posted by buzz2

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Originally Posted by duck

Well, Buzz, at least you recognize what you said about homosexuality for what it is.

We have had this discussion on this forum before, and being gay isn't something that can be "indoctrinated" by teaching. You cannot prevent anybody from being gay by hiding it and nobody learning about it. It is not learned behavior. And by saying that, it cannot be "unlearned" by teaching such as ExGay. Doesn't happen. It is indeed a fact of life whether the bible condemns it or condones it.

Duck,

It is JUST MY OPINION. True. But, it's all I have. I believe it is just wrong for schools to be teaching that being homosexual is ok and normal. IT IS NOT. Why do you think some call it queer? Queer means, odd, strange, etc. Homophobe is just a word that the homosexual community came up with to label folks like me that don't accept their life style, to try to guilt us into accepting it. "Oh No... I don't want to offend the gay people, so I'd better just accept them!" No sir, not me. It is NOT just normal. And I don't want people trying to force it on us. For example; the "gay pride parade" in San Francisco. Talk about discrimination. Why don't they have a "hetero pride parade" then. I know they're out there. Why do they feel they need to thrust it out into the public that way? It's a disgusting display they are portraying out there. I just don't want MY family to have to see it. So, if that makes me a homo-phobe, so be it. It's not just wrong in GOD'S eyes, it's wrong in my eyes too. It's not a religious issue for me. They can do whatever they want to in their own houses. Just don't force it onto the rest of the public. They can be in the military, or even work right beside me if they want. Just leave their sexual preferences at home where it belongs.

Okay I couldn't get through the rest of the posts after reading this one.

FIRST off, the ignorant title of "queer" speaks to the fact that homosexuality isn't as common as heterosexuality, therefor it isn't the 'norm' in society. The word wasn't always reserved for us, if you would look in the dictionary you would notice that all of the homsexuality connections are typically defined as 'slang' and not the original meaning of the word.

Secondly, simply because something isn't "normal" as you put it doesn't mean it isn't natural. I know damn well who and what I am, neither your ignorance or that of the general public can change what I know to be true.

Thirdly, we have a right to exist and shouldn't have to hide away. You take for granted things like being able to hold your wife's hand in public without having to worry about some ignorant group of people saying or doing something. Eatting at a restaurant with another man you have to wonder what people are whispering around you, and don't even THINK about kissing your loved one goodbye at the airport.

It would be great if people like you didn't exist and we could be free to simply live our lives but since you feel like keeping us "out of sight out of mind" the gay community HAS to put ourselves out there so that maybe one day down the line gay men and women won't have to put up with the bullshit that is out there in today's world.

As far as parade's go, to be honest it isn't my cup of tea. The manner in which they are thrown aren't anything like who I am as a person, but I support them. We have a reason to be proud because it takes an immense amount of courage to stand up in the world and admit who and what you are openly when it isn't the "norm". It isn't exactly like these things are secret either, a bunch of homos don't decide to hide away in a certain place on a certain day and randomly jump out at all of the heterosexual people in assless chaps and half shirts. They are typically held in the same place every year, at the same time of year, and are well publicized. If it is such a huge issue for you STAY AWAY FOR THE DAY.

I don't know who exactly you think you are to be telling anyone to keep their sexuality "in their homes where it belongs." I am pretty sure the law does that for you. If two people do in fact have sex in public, be they straight or gay they will be arrested. I don't however believe you are referring to actual sex, you mean you just want us to pretend to be every day heterosexuals and not mention who we are out in the world, and of course don't kiss our loved one goodbye at the airport, right?

It's funny how being ourselves is "shoving it" down your throat, in that case why don't you never speak of your wife outside of your home again, and please don't make it obvious that you are in love when dining at a restaurant that I might be eating at, and can you get Mardi Gras discontinued while you're at it, I know there's a slight gay scene during Mardi Gras but mostly it's just you crazy heterosexuals throwing beads at women to see some tatas(COMPLETELY different from a pride parade, right?) , and can you make sure to not hold your wife's hand when walking around in public...keep it in your home where it belongs, I don't want you shoving it down my throat!

How sad that it isn't even a "religious" issue for you, it's just flat out stupidity and ignorance.

duck · 05-10-2008, 08:59 AM

Jodou1,

Thank you for standing up and telling this Neanderthal bigot what is what as far as you are concerned. I am het, but I have several openly gay students in my classroom right now (more so than other years) and I WILL provide a safe and welcome place in my class for them.

Gay, Bi, or Hetero, people are who they are and it is a natural thing.

End rant.

**debdodd** · 05-10-2008, 09:47 AM

now I get to say ahem ...

XO buddy!

duck · 05-10-2008, 11:57 AM

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Originally Posted by debdodd

now I get to say ahem ...

XO buddy!

*Takes a bow*

Jodou1 · 05-10-2008, 05:17 PM

Thanks Duck!

What do you teach?