Aaron

No, I mean police check points that are randomly set up on the main roads from time to time. They call them "safety check points". I call it bullshit.

UNDERSTAND, NotConvinced: We can make this country as safe as a newborns nursery. The cost of doing so would give us the rights of a newborn baby.

I'm not going to sight any examples or post an argument at this point. I ask you to do the same and just THINK. Every action has an equall and opposite reaction.

__________________
"The pump don't work cause' the vandals took the handle" - Bob Dylan

NotConvinced

I understand completely, my only main point....was that most people think they're giving up EVERYTHING for security, when it's really not that bad in my opinion. They get all upset about some "trampelling on their rights" when it seems to me atleast like it's another hippy lookin for a cause...

No offense meant to anyone, but to anyone who would generally disagree with me, you're overeacting. The government does indeed need to be "watched," but they havn't crossed the line.

Derbonic

The knife story , just like having "In God We Trust" on our cash is a foot in the door. Like getting bit by a flee. To ignore them until the problem gets worse is not a good idea. Anyone who is downplaying issues of this type have not thought it through in my opinion.

NotConvinced

Just a few quick other questions to get an idea of y'alls mindset:

1) Do you think widespread use of the taser crosses the line?
2) Are you afraid of getting your phone tapped?
3) Do you hate cops more than commend them?
4) What's the next big freedom you fear the government is going to infringe upon?
5) Are you willing to believe in the slightest possibility that the security changes in our laws is exactly what needed to be done to keep us more safe?
6) How many of your own rights would you (additionally) give up if it meant Much greater security for yourself and this nation?

Derbonic

Even though you quoted me , your use of the word "y'alls" makes me think you are addressing everyone. I will answer anyway.

1. What line? Maybe all pencils should be made of rubber , because they can be a deadly weapon? Maybe we should not let anyone drive anything because vehicles are statistically much more deadly than guns? My answer is: thinking there is some line that can be put in a correct place is rediculious.

2. I am not afraid of having my phone tapped , I would however be insulted if it where to happen.

3. There are many people who have chosen to work in law enforcement that I like very much , and there are some who I dispise. Its a matter of getting to know the individual. If people do not like the job description of the police , they should cease appathy and vote for people who share your opinoins or run themselves.

4. *shrug. Who knows.

5. Certainly. For all I know it has prevented many deaths in the last few years. It could also be responsable for inspiring more hate and fear within the USA. A deadly combination.

6. I do not want to give up any rights , I want more information. More information for me, our children, and the world at large. The information we currently recieve from the media seems based on sensationalism and add revenue.

The earth is round , If you draw a line you are still on both sides.

Aaron

1) I wont argue th value of a taser as a means of quelling a violent situation, but I do disagree with the disgression that they are used.
2) No, but if anyone did tap my phone would insult me and leave with the question "why?".
3) It's getting that way. A cop's role used to be that of a mediator/enforcer. Now, enforcement withought mediation seems to be the norm.
4) To enter our homes withought just cause.
5) No, unless you're an international terrorist.
6) Not a single one. To give up any right is submitting to the terrorist assholes.

__________________
"The pump don't work cause' the vandals took the handle" - Bob Dylan

Aaron

Turnabout's fair play NotConvinced, what will you give up in the name of sucurity? Answer your own questions.

__________________
"The pump don't work cause' the vandals took the handle" - Bob Dylan

NotConvinced

I agree with most of what Derbonic answered...

1) I don't believe they cross the line, however there seems to be a small group of people who adamantly do. And by line here Derbonic I meant the public sanction of a particular use of police weaponry, like....the sick sticks from the movie Minority Report. Would the widespread use of those (with proper discretion) cross the line of public acceptability? Personally I'd have to see them in action (sounds fun too).

2) No I'm not afraid, I couldn't care less, honestly I think I'd try and have fun with the dudes who were trying to do it, atleast once anyway.

3) Only time I tend to hate'em is when it's traffic related, and I usually deserve what I get there anyway...

4) Good question (thanks, self), I think I'll know it when I see it.

5) Out of all these questions this one seemed to sum up the "litmus" effect I was aiming at. If you answer No here, I think you either seriously missed the point of my main argument or I'd kinda deem ya hopeless. It just seems like some of the most basic logic draws the conclusion that in order to better protect ourselves from terrorism, there are some sacrifices we're gonna have to make. The essential question is how much do we sacrifice for how much protection, like a how much bang for the buck kind of argument; and I'd argue we haven't crossed the line of sacrificing "too much" yet.

6) I think I touched on this one with my answers to 4 and 5, it'd be much easier if given a precise scenario.

I think most Americans are reasonable enough to agree with most of my points of view, especially because I'm in essence arguing that we "keep things as they are," and we'd democratically be somewhere else if most didn't.

Aaron

I am not a radical nor extremist by any means. I am not and anarchist and do feel that there needs to be some sort of order to keep us safe.

The problem is that we are dealing with a fine balance between our personal discression and government imposed discression. I, for one, prefer to think for myself and trust my own judgement in keeping myself and my loved ones safe. I don't need stupid government laws to do it for me.

You can't impose zero tolerance policy based on your weakest link and still have freedom. Idiots and agressors are our weakest link and zero tolerance laws assume all of us are one or the other in the name of safety.

Would it be right if one town banned recreational fires because one moron thought it would be a good idea to start a fire three feet from his house using gasoline and managed to burn his house to the ground? - It happened.

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT. You can't declare the actions of a select few morons as a problem and impose laws that makes life difficult for the 99.9% of responsible Americans. Just ask a few of the thousands of farmers who now have to deal with a royal pain in the butt when they want to buy urea in bulk - all because a couple of jackasses made a bomb out of it.

The idiots and agressors are all around us. They are a fact of life. Every law passed to protect us from them effects our own freedom of descression, and doesn't really protect us from them at all, as they will always find a new way to "F" things up.

__________________
"The pump don't work cause' the vandals took the handle" - Bob Dylan

NotConvinced

I see where you're coming from, but for the most part I don't think we've hit anywhere close to a zero tolerance policy. If we had one, rather than a random baggage search on airlines, everyone would have to go through it. I believe we agree on the basis of What the spectrum is, just not where we currently are on it. I think we had things way too good for almost all of the 80s and 90s. That, and we're still in essence trying to comprehend and understand how deal with terrorism on the whole. Sometimes it seems like everywhere you turn the press is jumping on the government cuz "our borders still aren't secure," "our international shipping process has too many holes," or "our security measures are terribly lacking here or there." I agree we need watchdogs on the government, but they can't be calling wolf for every pocket knife that gets taken away from a dude at a circus.