Sa\/en

Self-Sacrifice

From what I understand, it is possible for a computer to be programmed to self-destruct when it notices a more powerful PC on its LAN. This is just a hypothetical scenario. What I am trying to say is you can program a PC to “kill” itself when it notices a more powerful machine (to take over its job). The PC does not self-destruct because of choice it made but rather because it was programmed to react to the situation in a certain way. If it had a choice, it would have to possess freewill (and this is clearly not possible).

Couldn’t the same be argued for people when they are in a stressful situation? For example, you get put into a situation where you have no time to think, you just act immediately. If I were to see a brick falling from a building onto a family member of mine, I would not think, I would just act immediately (even if the brick could hurt and kill me). Couldn’t the same be argued for the computer that self-destructs? The computer, like the person, merely acts, not out of choice as the computer only has one option, which is to self-destruct. The person, like the computer, acts immediately. Isn’t this altruism?

Og

It's self preservation because you identify part of your self with your family member. You're effectively preserving who you are. This is why you dehumanize the opponent in war. It makes it much easyer for people to destroy them. They can no longer identify themselves with the target of the malice.

It's all selfish behavior.. self preservation.

The only reason that self preserving entities exist versus non self preserving entities is because self preserving entities preserve themselves over time and are therefore are the ones that survive to exist.

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The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

jaej

Altruism is simply the principle of unselfish devotion to the well-being of others; it says nothing about lack of choice. It's the opposite of egoism. A good example of altruism is how an animal will do something disadvantageous to itself but that benefits the rest of it's tribe or whatever. Like crying out to reveal the location of a predator. That animal is toast, but the rest will be fine. I think it involves completely our definition of 'choice.'

About what else you were saying though. I think it is perfectly reasonable for someone to act compulsively, without really thinking.

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Sa\/en

Interesting...

But I still remain somewhat confused.

An interesting example of altruism is found in the cellular slime moulds, such as Dictyostelium mucoroides. These protists live as individual amoebae until starved, at which point they aggregate and form a multicellular fruiting body in which some cells sacrifice themselves to promote the survival of other cells in the fruiting body.

Why can't humans behave in a similar manner? Wouldn't Altruistic acts be an evolutionary advantage?

Og

Altruism means you identify yourself with other things (like a culture or an ideal or a family). It's certainly a selfish act you just have an idea of yourself that isn't limited to what's under your own skin.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Sa\/en

Couldn’t it be argued that when a creature identifies a family member as a part of it, its actual self is abandoned and it identifies the family member as itself? The actual self is killed. Then the self is beyond its skin. Couldn’t that be argued what altruism actually is, identifying yourself as something beyond your skin?

It’s nice to think that the concept of the self is not restricted by your body. Thanks for informing me.

Sa\/en

Og, would you say that cells (biological) have a “self”?

The An-Jel

Great thread and great arguments from Og and Sa\/en. Identification with the masses and immolation of the enemy is a form of selfish instinct but this kind of seperation from the self with the masses could possibly be construed as a "selfless" act. Og and I have had this discussion before under the topic of hedonism and the sacrificing soldier falling on a grenade. I still haven't been satisfied with my conclusion or his unfortunately. I guess the question arises in me... is there a Universal identification that goes beyond the self. While there is ample evidence everyday that people think of their own needs first and while the samples of a Universal identification with people, creatures, and even inorganic objects are far and few between. Since we are all made of the same energy essentially with different purposes it extends the question of free will into my mind. Is there such a thing? Is there such a thing as Altruism or are we guided by our own biological self generating purpose. I thought I would throw in my two cents because it's these types of questions that are balking me in my studies and writing these days. You folks inspire me to get my degree in earnest once again.

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lauraclay

Who's to say you're not thinking when you sacrifice yourself? When the computer self-destructs, it first has to go through many complicated processes, it has to think how to kill. It just does it so fast that we don't think about it. If you saw a brickfalling towards a family member you would still think. You would just think faster. And prior thought would also come into effect. If you had recently devoted much thought to why humans should not be saved and how much you hated Aunt Jo and why she should die, then if you saw a brick falling towards her and were truly hateful, you would not save her. But if all your life you had valued human life, you would save her without questioning. I think it's all conditioning.

I think your 'self' has to include everything that 'makes you up'. And that definitely extends the limits of your body.

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and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

Dirge

I was actualy gonna reply in a certain manner, until I read what An-Jel wrote.
I don't know how many of you have actualy been in a situation which calls for a choice of self preservation among someone else's.
I don't know about the natural instinct of self preservation and how it can be implamented on other people like family or friends and still be called "self preservation", but I do know one thing, it is different in the contiousness of every man.
I have been a cop and a military man for the last several years, and I can tell you one thing, some situations call for special people to respond to. Not everyone can so firmly say that the sweetest way to die would be by defending another human who needed your help, which is my belief.
I don't like all people, not even most, or half, but I feel that it is because of the lack of respect that humans have for life and the community-well-being in general.
I have jumped head first, through shattered windows into houses where people were in dire danger, and I would do it any time and in any situation.
Because I can't change the world, but I can improve MY world. which I guess is egoistic in some form of psychological babble.
I also believe that giving ones life for a cause is superior, ofcourse only if it does not harm anyone elses right to live freely.
Martyrdom is pure and stupid, but it is in the eyes of the beholder.

In my eyes, the true heroes in this world are those man and women who put their live on the line in order to rescue other from harm, soldiers, firemen, policemen and special forces, coast guard, paramedics and so on.
If there is a Heaven, they deserve it more than any other.

And even if you can't see yourself risking your life for others, remember this saying, which I love dearly:

"A man cannot always be hero, but he can always be a man."
-Geotte

great topic by the way

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