Og

unrealistic in what sense? I know that we don't know much about early earth. My point is that you say that it's unlikely that amino acids spontaneously form. Yet this experiment shows exactly a case where they do. Are you saying that the M-U experiment illustrates the ONLY conditions under which amino acids are formed? It certainly isn't. There are many clouds of interstellar gas containing amino acids.

What does this mean? I know of many self assembled polymers. The DNA/RNA bases, for example, will self assemble into pairs when they are put together due to matching polar groups between the complimentary bases. These bases are demonstrated to exist outside of earth in interstellar clouds as well as on earth. When placed in solution, they bond spontaneously.

Are you speaking about the probability of a peptide bond occurring? In what environment are you basing this probability? The probability is clearly MUCH higher than what you state inside a ribosome where proteins are made in our bodies... And ribosomes are self assembled chains of nucleotides that form a superstructure that increases the chance that peptide bonds will form between amino acids....

So under what conditions are you stating your probability? What is your reference for the probability of the peptide bond occurring and under what chemical environment are you making your claim about a probability of occurrence?

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The An-Jel

You know what the fun is here? We are about 80 years or so into technology that scientists can start really proving things and 5000 years of mythology is fighting it. Envy you here almost Og except in the field your going into... I'm more interested in keeping us the way we are and expanding the mind the way it is.

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Og

What do you mean "keeping us the way we are," An-jel? And not all of mythology is fighting it... It's really only about 1500 years of mythology. Most of the older religions of the world are the ones that produced the new crazy religions. Hinduism and buddhism contain the same elementary ideas as christianity, it has just been intellectually interpreted instead of crazy literalist/supernaturally interpreted. And they're much older than the hebrews and such.

The true religions are not in conflict with science.. They realize the symbols as symbols and intellectually interpret the elementary ideas.

Thick headed literalist mythological ignorance with a global pulpit is a relatively recent player on the scene where mythologies of man are concerned. If anything, science has been busting out of this 1500 year crap for about 400-600 years (renaissance and such). So it's really only been a small window in human history (starting with the rise of the western creed religions such as christianity) that has produced thick headed crazy literalists.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

sisterX

Hi Og, Ok I will tell you why it was unrealistic although I'm sure you already know it!
The whole purpose of Miller's experiment was to prove that amino acids could form on their own in early earth-like conditions, right?

Miller created an unrealistic simulation of the atmosphere of early earth. Early earth was very hot at those times, and that it was composed of melted nickel and iron. Therefore, the chemical atmosphere of that time should have been formed mostly of nitrogen, carbon dioxide, and water vapour. But Miller used methane and ammonia instead because knew that Amino acids CANNOT be synthesized withou ammonia.


You say that these conditions were "similar" to conditions on early early earth. But I really cant see any similarity can you point out the similarity?
The artificial atmosphere created by Miller in his experiment actually have not the slightest resemblance to the primitive atmosphere on earth.

Another point is that there was enough oxygen in the atmosphere at that time to destroy all the amino acids when they were thought to have been formed. Miller overlooked this fact, this is why he did not use oxygen at all in the experiment.
If he had used oxygen in the experiment, methane would have decomposed into carbon dioxide and water, and ammonia into nitrogen and water.
Also, without oxygen, there is no ozone layer on earth, what would then happen to those ammino acids? They would have been destroyed.

When the amino acids were formed Miller used mechanism called a "cold trap," to isolate the amino acids from the environment as soon as they were formed. If he did not, the conditions in the environment in which the amino acids were formed would immediately have destroyed these molecules.
This mechanism of isolation did not exist in an uncontrolled enviroment such as early earth.

Finally, Miller's experiment produced right-handed amino acids and cannot function in the composition of living organisms.

As a scientist how can you disregard all of these points? That is why I said you are a materialist first and scientist second. And you cannot say you are not a materialist because you believe only in material existance.

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sisterX

I'm not talking about proteins being made in our bodies, I'm talking about abiogenesis. I dont see how you could confuse the two.

I'm talking about the probability of the formation of left-handed amino acid and the formation of a peptide bond between these amino acids.

The enviroment of early earth with a chemical atmosphere consisting of CO2, N2 AND H2O.

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}SoC{Sumguy

i think this thread may have veered slightly away from the original topic...

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lauraclay

Find a thread that hasn't.

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