lauraclay

All right sister, so what is your soul? Are all souls the same?

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

sisterX

Lauraclay, our souls are spirits that have been given free will. Og, so why cant scientist recreate the conditions of early earth in a lab and demonstrate that amino acids can form spontaneously? And regarding your example of creating a living robot, you ignore the fact that such a robot would have to be 'intelligently designed', it would not be able to assemble itself in a billion years (or even four billion years).

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

Og

You would be mistaken... Since we were self assembled over 4 billion years and we assembled the robot. The robot would be self assembled. Otherwise, you were "intelligently designed" by your parents when they selected each other for mates.

In either case, the distinction is irrelevant. The "self aware" robot would be demonstrably a living entity with consciousness that was entirely derived from its material components and would illustrate how soul is a null word.

As for the amino acid thing, are you saying that the chemical state of the amino acids is an unstable configuration? Are you saying that the constituent atoms will NOT bond in the way that they are bound in amino acids? Do you hold that amino acids we have today are the ones that were created by your god and have not changed over time? Do you hold that amino acids are constantly created by god when they are catalyzed for energy in several cellular reactions?

Amino acids are formed in gas clouds (nebula) in deep space (spectroscope illustrates this) and they are formed on planets such as venus and jupiter (i think this is the case, but there are many organic molecules on these planets). The miller urey experiment (regardless of your claims of how it didn't represent early earth) "spontaneously" produced amino acids...

La de da.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

My main encounter with the miller-urey experiment is as it was related by carl sagan in the cosmos series. It was also contained in the recent DVD re-release of the cosmos series. Are you claiming that sagan was mistaken about the validity of the experiment and how it illustrates the assembly of the elements of life in an environment similar to early earth?

Basically, sisterX, your claims of the lack of evidenciary support for evolution or abiogenesis/self assembly go in the face of the entire field of sciences. They go against the core tenets of science that receive huge amounts of funding from public and private firms around the world and produce many detailed understandings of how life works today.

The results of the theory of evolution are astounding. Are you claiming that the entire life sciences population is misled? If so, how do you think this happened on such a massive scale when there is much competition and cross checking of observation such that conspiracy on the scales you implicate would be impossible.

What do you think happened to steer all of us scientists so far off path?

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

sisterX

My parents did not conciously make me, a sperm fused with an egg. A root would have to be physicall put together using intelligence. And a single cell is more complexed than any man made robot. The probabilty of one cell forming by chance is abosolutely 0/nill.




Oh really? how did you come that silly conclusion?

Miler-Urey Experiment did not use anything close to the conditions of early earth, it was make believe.

Carl Sagan? Did not not also believe in Extra Terrestrial life? I could be mistaken.

But my question to you would be, if there is such a consensus in the scientific community regarding ToE as you claim. Why haven't all scientists including the majority of scientists around the world not accepted it as fact? Why havent they all denounced their faith in God?

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

Og

Ahhhhhh the masses toying with things they don't understand. What part of non-dogmatic and self correcting don't you get? The process never ends.

Miller-Urey was make believe? So you're saying the experiment didn't occur? They didn't combine constituent components, apply energy in the form of shocks and pressure, and spontaneously produce amino acids? I thought your claim was that amino acids could not have spontaneously formed. Regardless of how the M-U experiment matched early earth conditions, they still spontaneously formed amino acids.

Or did I miss the point of what you were saying?

There's all these nasty data points on earth that tend to indicate that you're wrong. Where are you getting your calculation of absolutely zero probability?

Or are you indicating 0/nill as an undefined quantity (i.e. 0/0)?

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Tango

wow, infinite probability? no wonder creation is false

carl sagan refused to say whether he thought there was extra-terrestrial life because there wasnt enough evidence to have an informed opinion

__________________
I hope it feels so good to be right. There's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?

sisterX

Oh, thanks for the info on Carl Sagan.

The probability of the formation of only one protein molecule is "1 in 10300". The probability of this "1" to occur is practically nil. (In practice, probabilities smaller than 1 over 1050 are thought of as "zero probability"). So the probabilty of one cell forming by change is even less than that.

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

sisterX

Og, does it not matter to you that Miller-Urey experiment did not use the same conditions on early earth? Do you not care about this little fact? I mean Miller even admitted it was unrealistic, why cant you?

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

Tango

but what you said is 0/nill, same as 0/0 which is undefined (another way of saying infinite). typo im sure, but still

__________________
I hope it feels so good to be right. There's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?