jaej

I'm not really sure what you're saying other than maybe we should just live and pretend we have free will. Did I read wrong? Also I don't understand what you mean by 'manipulate the mind.'

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debdodd

I kinda understand what An-jel says and perhaps there is a happy place between Og and An-jel ..... maybe not .... maybe it's the illusion we cling to that keeps us "hanging in there" and not giving into despair ... the hope that life is worth while, that one can make a difference, that life has more purpose than just to pass on our DNA .... sometimes I don't want the answer and would prefer just to be a mushroom or maybe that I see and understand the answer but it appears too hopeless for me to grasp with my limited knowledge ... the world needs "worker bees" too ....

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"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

sisterX

Jaej why do we have to pretend? Do you not make concious choices every day? It seems to me that your rejecting logic just to get and "answer for your answer" as you accuse others of doing.

Neurobiology does not rule out the existance of an entity out side of the 'physical' sphear (the soul) which is capable of excersising free will.

To say we do not have free will is to say we should not be held responsible for anything. But that is totally illogical.

You are an example of somene who is over-awed by certain scientific statements and just accepts them without question of their logic.

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"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

jaej

Thanks so much for telling me what I think. I wasn't aware I had to document every nuance of my thinking and reasoning on a forum for the whole world to read.

That's certainly a possibility, and the major flaw of a nihilist philosophy, but it's ultimately. I think people should, need rather, be held responsible for their actions. If laws, etc. are not enforced, and the responsibility for their actions taken away from people, what are we left with? Decay and destruction. Living under the illusion of free will is entirely necessary for a stable society and for human progress. Plus you waste your life if you just mope around saying 'nothing I do matters'. I don't live like that, and I don't want to.

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lauraclay

I think there is a happy medium. Personally, I don't go to either of the extremes of free-will existing and free-will not existing. I think free-will exists in daily terms. For example, I know I choose whether or not to go eat that carrot. There's been times I've eaten it, and times I haven't. However, I also accept that all the reasons I choose to eat it stem from processes and circumstances beyond my control. The one thing I don't like is how one side tends to always focus solely on scientific data and dismiss the philisophical arguments, while the other side focuses solely on the philosophical arguments and dismisses the scientific arguments.

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The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

sisterX

Yeah, it all boils down to whether you accept we have souls or not.

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

lauraclay

I think we have personalities. Not souls. But you never know. That's just my guess, and I'm not sticking to it.

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

jaej

Why have an opinion if you're not going to stand by it.

Personality is nothing more than a pattern of behavior. A soul, as near as I can tell, is the only sort of thing that could give us ultimate free will.

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lauraclay

It's not an opinion, it's a guess.
My opinion is that we don't and possibly can not know. I'll stick to that. It's why I'm agnostic. You never know what you don't know.

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

jaej

Really? Wow, I never would have guessed.

While it is clearly uncertain, like the existence of god, to give each alternative equal weight is silly. It's clearly very improbable there is a soul, just as it's very improbable there is a god. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's likely, and it's foolish to treat it as such.

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