Socrates

**The An-Jel** · 04-07-2007, 08:20 PM

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GREECE/SOCRATES.HTM

If there was a God that was a man I think this man deserves the first crack at this thread!

Plato used to be trained by this man

The Socratic Method is still used today unfortunately by lawyers but there you go:

lauraclay · 04-09-2007, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Socrates wrote nothing because he felt that knowledge was a living, interactive thing. Socrates' method of philosophical inquiry consisted in questioning people on the positions they asserted and working them through questions into a contradiction, thus proving to them that their original assertion was wrong. Socrates himself never takes a position; in The Apology he radically and skeptically claims to know nothing at all except that he knows nothing. Socrates and Plato refer to this method of questioning as elenchus , which means something like "cross-examination" The Socratic elenchus eventually gave rise to dialectic, the idea that truth needs to be pursued by modifying one's position through questioning and conflict with opposing ideas. It is this idea of the truth being pursued, rather than discovered, that characterizes Socratic thought and much of our world view today. The Western notion of dialectic is somewhat Socratic in nature in that it is conceived of as an ongoing process. Although Socrates in The Apology claims to have discovered no other truth than that he knows no truth, the Socrates of Plato's other earlier dialogues is of the opinion that truth is somehow attainable through this process of elenchus .

Perhaps this is the true roots of agnosticism.

Quote:

The Athenians, with the exception of Plato, thought of Socrates as a Sophist, a designation he seems to have bitterly resented. He was, however, very similar in thought to the Sophists. Like the Sophists, he was unconcerned with physical or metaphysical questions; the issue of primary importance was ethics, living a good life. He appeared to be a sophist because he seems to tear down every ethical position he's confronted with; he never offers alternatives after he's torn down other people's ideas.

If Socrates was alive today, would he be agnostic?

Quote:

He doesn't seem to be a radical skeptic, though. Scholars generally believe that the Socratic paradox is actually Socratic rather than an invention of Plato. The one positive statement that Socrates seems to have made is a definition of virtue (areté): "virtue is knowledge." If one knows the good, one will always do the good. It follows, then, that anyone who does anything wrong doesn't really know what the good is. This, for Socrates, justifies tearing down people's moral positions, for if they have the wrong ideas about virtue, morality, love, or any other ethical idea, they can't be trusted to do the right thing.

Do you think that's true? I think there are people who know what they are doing is wrong, but proceed to do it anyway. I think this is a rather optimistic view of people.

**debdodd** · 04-09-2007, 12:08 PM

always in a state of flux, always questioning, never knowing anything for sure ... sounds like a road paved to insanity ... so if we never know anything for sure then we are nothing? if you are always questioning everything around you when do you ever get to stop and enjoy your life. If you never stop questioning and never stop to say "it is what it is" .. when do you get to the point of saturation of always questioning? it would seem that if life were never ending questions of what if and how about's .... you would get such a convoluted thought process that one day you'd just have to sit down and say WTF? I think one can sit and dwell on the what if's or why is, etc so much they they forget to live ... carpe diem ... Socrates is not my favorite ... he makes my head hurt after a while. knowledge is great unless it impedes your social skills ... it's all about balance ... just my opinion.

lauraclay · 04-09-2007, 12:10 PM

I think you can question forever. In theory. But in practice, you must meld. Meld into society that is. I will normally take the most proven point of view, but I still question in my head. Life, at least my life, is not full of theological questions. It is full of homework assignments, jobs, friends, etc. I focus on those most of the time. I consider theology and philosophy my escapes. I enjoy questioning. You can't really question that much in real life.

**debdodd** · 04-09-2007, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lauraclay

I think you can question forever. In theory. But in practice, you must meld. Meld into society that is. I will normally take the most proven point of view, but I still question in my head. Life, at least my life, is not full of theological questions. It is full of homework assignments, jobs, friends, etc. I focus on those most of the time. I consider theology and philosophy my escapes. I enjoy questioning. You can't really question that much in real life.

Oh I think you can question "real life" more than anything .... but I'm a cynic so I question motives, etc of people ..... at this point in your life your parents take care of the everyday BS when you have to start doing all of it on your own ... you'll wonder about business motives of people and all kinds of things ..... questioning is good. I don't always take an alleged "proven" view .... there is always someone around the corner who says they can "prove" someone's theory wrong ..... Some people use questioning as a healthy escape and others become obsessed with the escape .... it's all about balance

I seem to be repeatring myself about the whole "balance" thing

lauraclay · 04-09-2007, 02:52 PM

I don't think I can generalize this. We'd have to go situation by situation.

mister_lister · 04-09-2007, 11:06 PM

I think therefore I am. I question to hear an answer. I evaluate to find what is relevant and meaningful. The answer better be "good" or I will continue to question.

Philosophy is the critical study of fundemental beliefs and the grounds for them.

I have read philosophers who question everything, even Reality ("thats not a chair its a dog") and philosophers who come to conclusions before a fact is established (there is a god). Most philosophers are wordy and over think and analyze, way beyond what is necessary, just to explain a thing you have known since childhood.

The Simple confound the Complex and the Complex confound the Simple.

**debdodd** · 04-09-2007, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mister_lister

Most philosophers are wordy and over think and analyze, way beyond what is necessary The Simple confound the Complex and the Complex confound the Simple.

Amen!!! I absolutely hated philosophy class in college ..... the class didn't help clarify life .... if anything it muddied the waters .....

**The An-Jel** · 04-10-2007, 12:53 AM

A lot of philosophy was done at the presence of the time it was presented. I don't find most philosophers credible as they catered to the kings and queens that ruled. Even up to modern times. Yes children we have kings and queens we have designated even now.

Socrates and that article I quoted above (thank you lauraclay for pointing out some key articles I didn't notice in my haste to pay tribute to my mentor Socrates) are not exactly accurate as I saw the way he did things or desirable. Socrates a Sophist... exactly the opposite. People who listened to him as I researched thought of him as the person who made the Sophists cringe. He believed in the best way of living and the best way to live. Moderation was the best way because you were a balanced human being. If a man (those times you know) balanced himself with life then he could find the real truth.

Yeah as an Agnostic I think Socrates would have been an addition to us. Religion isn't at all realistic... the gods were believed... he thought there was a single God (incidently which was why he was condemned to Death, it resembles Christ more and more each time I think about it, the Greek version of the fall of Lucifer resembles the war of the Gods and Titans, only the Titan won against the Fallen) because at that time it would have been complete blaspheme to claim their was no God or to even question what type of God it is. Know whats fun is that Socrates never specified what kind of God it was that ruled his world. He chose to go see for himself on his own terms and I admire that as much as I admire Einstein and Newton (he was a little crazy but he invented so much in mathematics and physics that I love the man)

Vencedor · 04-10-2007, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debdodd

Amen!!! I absolutely hated philosophy class in college ..... the class didn't help clarify life .... if anything it muddied the waters .....

Philosophy is a subject that i think a person can't really learn very well in a class, its something u have to look at in ur own way and form ur own beliefs about (not unlike religion)