romansh

I agree.
We can guide our own lack of free will ... a non sequitur
I stand a better chance of altering your path than my own. And I stand no chance with the former.

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

debdodd

I know you guys have said this plenty of times but I still don't understand it ... the whole free will concept and all .... I have tried to understand but it simply makes no sense to me ....

How can I not have free will? I know you say it is an illusion that I have free will but

it seems that I have the free will to make choices everyday and I do ... had I turned left instead of right to get home I would have missed the car wreck that made me miss the call that I was waiting for .... and on and on .... is it the illusion that we have choice and that it is all just random results ... if so then why make choices because what is going to happen is going to happen ... I just don't get it ...

you guys need to really "dummy" this down ... hey I know ... let's utilize the "No kid left behind" philosophy and lets say I'm the dumbest kid in the class and no one gets to graduate until the dumb kid gets "it" .....

yes I like that idea ... I honestly want to understand what this means .... remember George Bush says you can't leave me, the dumb kid, behind .....come on have pity on me ....

(I know I clown around a lot but this time I am stone cold serious)

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

romansh

Hi Deb ... firstly I don't think it is too important whether we believe we have free will or not ... I (we) can't do anything differently anyway. I will carry on making decisions and choices, etc as I have always done.
Secondly when I arrived here seven months ago, I too believed I had free will, but I think I have been persuaded otherwise ... it's OK the world does not come to an end.
The way I understand it, any conscious action I have, eg replying to this post comes from a myriad of inputs. If I started listing the reasons it would go for a long time. Each of those reasons have their antecedents and so on. On top of that our nutrition affects our decisions, our environment, our genetics, our health ... (think of Cathy and messenger). So when I answer question in your previous post ... my thought might be "I like Deb, she was nice to me early on, I'll choose to answer" ... .. but sorry Debs in reality it's a whole bunch of programming stretching back to way before I was born. But "I think you're OK" works too.

So can I suggest you choose a mundane action ... eg how you chose the last book you read. And just try to imagine all the influences that "allowed you to make that choice". Then think about the reasons for those.

That's my reasoning ... I cannot make a choice independent of my environment ... ie it is the environment that ultimately makes the choice. Og might add my environment and I are one. It just feels like I am making a choice.

not sure this helps?

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

GX

Eternal, from this lifetime to the next and inbetween ad infinitum. It is however constantly evolving.

Nick Treklis

Lack of freewill doesn't mean we don't have will power.

Just think about your current state of existence and how it got there. There are literally infinite factors that account for it. Food availability, your parents having sexual intercourse, their parents having sexual intercourse, the evolution of the human species, the formation of the planets, the formation of the Sun, the formation of the Galaxy and the rest of the universe, the fact that a tornado didn't sweep through your neighborhood yesterday and take your life, the fact that a bug didn't fly into your room and cause you to become too distracted by it to concern yourself with this topic. The factors are literally endless, and every single decision you make will have endless effects as well. So romansh is wrong when he says how understanding this fact doesn't really make much of a difference in how we live life. As you can see this shows just how important every decision we make is. Just because we have no free will doesn't mean we don't have will power.

If it's constantly evolving then how can it rightly be said to be my consciousness or your consciousness or be eternal? It can only be said consciousness until it evolves into something else, and since this evolution is constantly taking place this means said consciousness only exists for a particular moment just like all things finite. It is certainly not eternal.

romansh

Will power over what? Our choices and actions?
What exactly is your definition of free will?

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Nick Treklis

Free will is the false belief that our decisions are uncaused and/or undertermined.

romansh

OK can we have will power independent of this causation?

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Og

Your sense of self is your will power. To answer your question specifically, no, that would be "free" will. Your will to action is described by the reasons you would give for your actions. Any will power you exert is for a reason, and therefore caused. You can change your environment and your path in life, but that act is caused by pressures and external forces coming together in both time and space. Your brain's memory allows for the temporal mixing of environmental factors to produce behaviors.

Your will to change is just as much caused as the path your will is changing you from.

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Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
Satchitananda - True Being, Pure Consciousness, and Bliss
Tat Tvam Asi - Thou art That.
You & I, no distinction.
Mettā & Namaste

romansh

Og, I would argue but I think you are right ...

Deb ... I'm not sure about Nick's conclusion ... below. Lets say for the sake of argument you came to the conclusion there is no free will in reality, then you might realise that you would have to look more closely at these influences before "coming to a choice" .... we still do this.

Taking account the myriad of influences on us is an impossibility, so the best we could do is make a marginally better decision. Sure the effect of making better decisions may add up ... but I can't say I am making better decisions now that I am aware I have no free will ....

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams