The lesser evil... - Page 4

romansh · 04-27-2008, 10:32 AM

The question remains.

With or without religion ... are people going to make this a better place?
They may no longer have god on their side;
but now they have logic.

to justify their deeds.

pseudonous · 04-27-2008, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaseolus

...let me present you with an imaginary situation which I would like you to asses with a little empathy. 500 years ago, there lived a farmer who had a large family and toiled his little patch all day in the hope of providing the basic nessecities for his loved ones. The only consolation he had in his tough and dreary life which infused him with the strength to wake up every morning was an unwavering conviction that GOD was looking after his lot and a promise of paradise in the afterlife. Now which realization do you think would affect him worse.. that the world is not flat but round or that GOD was and is a figment of his imagination. You see... As i was telling GX.. The concept of god is too convenient and will be forfeited very reluctantly if ever. I hope you see my point.

I see your point but I do think the list of predominantly secular countries does constitute evidence that the majority can give up this belief. Though, it would be nice if the list could be independently verified.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaseolus

Another question... I am convinced that world in its current state of affairs could never give up GOD/religion but this distinguished pattern of rising materialism/atheism in proportion with wealth..like in Europe and in America to some extent (I know it is not universally applicable, the middle east being a prime example) is perhaps an indication that at some future point the possibility could be feasible? To put it simply.. do you think an easier life style eliminates the need for GOD?

I agree that the world in its current state of affairs could never give up belief in god/religion. In fact, I view this as a tautology. As for your question, the simple answer is no, I do not think an easier life style eliminates the need for god. It may help but it is not sufficient to do so. I am actually quite tempted to say that a change in aesthetics would be necessary. I think your farmer example gives an indication of this; it seems the farmer needs his belief in god because otherwise life would just be to ugly.

pseudonous · 04-27-2008, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by romansh

The question remains.

With or without religion ... are people going to make this a better place?
They may no longer have god on their side;
but now they have logic.

to justify their deeds.

I think you bring up a good point. The question is what would replace religion?

Phaseolus · 04-27-2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by romansh

The question remains.

With or without religion ... are people going to make this a better place?
They may no longer have god on their side;
but now they have logic.

to justify their deeds.

How much better of an alternative do you think logic could ever be? Theres a good chance that it could lead to far worse. Pure, simple logic has the potential to eventually transform into something terrifying in my opinion (eugenics, class/catse system etc).

P.S.. Not to forget... logic is as fallible as religion with regard to the number of varying interpretations it could have.

romansh · 04-27-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaseolus

How much better of an alternative do you think logic could ever be? Theres a good chance that it could lead to far worse. Pure, simple logic has the potential to eventually transform into something terrifying in my opinion (eugenics, class/catse system etc).

P.S.. Not to forget... logic is as fallible as religion with regard to the number of varying interpretations it could have.

It's not about our beliefs ... it's about our attitudes.
If we want our neighbour's property we will find a way to justify it (perhaps).

Our greed, arrogance, best interests, pragmatism lead us to some strange places even with all the logic we have available at the moment.

Why would things be that much different in the absence of religion?

Phaseolus · 04-27-2008, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by romansh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaseolus

How much better of an alternative do you think logic could ever be? Theres a good chance that it could lead to far worse. Pure, simple logic has the potential to eventually transform into something terrifying in my opinion (eugenics, class/catse system etc).

P.S.. Not to forget... logic is as fallible as religion with regard to the number of varying interpretations it could have.

It's not about our beliefs ... it's about our attitudes.
If we want our neighbour's property we will find a way to justify it (perhaps).

Our greed, arrogance, best interests, pragmatism lead us to some strange places even with all the logic we have available at the moment.

Why would things be that much different in the absence of religion?

Exactly...

xexon · 04-27-2008, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaseolus

Hi every one, There this Question thats been nagging at me for quite some time now and even after a number of long, and at times intense debates internally ( I split my self into two context dependent personalities, one for and one against and argue it out) and with other people, I still haven't come close to being any where near a satisfying answer.

To the question (finally!)... A lot of you have heard this one before but its very important to me so please indulge me. WOULD THE WORLD BE A BETTER PLACE WITHOUT RELIGION? for some of you the answer may be fairly simple..an over whelming YES! since a lot of conflict and strife in the world's past and present has been and is a consequence of while for some others it may be no, arguing that it serves as a moral and emotional support/compass etc in life whose benefits cannot be argued.

What I have been finding very difficult to predict is whether the benefits of an absence of the obvious problems caused by religion would actually outweigh those of believing in a higher power (whether it exists or not is irrelevant to this topic) and having a set of guiding principles that help navigate the intricacies/difficulties of life. For most of us agnostics here, the lack of religion is not a problem, and has even enriched our lives to an extent. But without a doubt we are an extremely small minority . What about the rest of the world's people for whom the need for a faith is an integral part of their existence. Could most people cope with their lives and the world without a religion or would society just break down into chaos making even the worst evils caused by its presence look like a small blip. Which is the lesser of the two evils? Please let me know your opinions.

P.S To some the answer might seem obvious, but hypothesizing on this scale is not to be taken lightly in my opinion which is why i'm hoping some of your thoughts will be helpful.

At this point in human evolution, the greater part of humanity is too spiritually immature to live without it. It's their teddy bear.

Religion is a result of someone having a God realization and other people writing about it who haven't. Rather than pat the person on the back, we turn them into a supernatural being and wave flowers and incence in front of them.

Thus begins the us/them syndrome.

There is no difference, except in perception.

People are like stem cells. They have no real identity of their own until they assemble one according to the needs placed upon them. They're programmable. And they will believe ANYTHING, if its attractively packaged.

Because everyone has an inner compass of the way home, many worldly people will step forward to offer you their services to assist you along the way. Religion is the first thing most people encounter when their search begins, but religion is an earthly thing and to the earth it will bind you.

Religion should be seen as a step up, but not the way itself. You need to know when to let go of it. At some point you have to summon the courage to jump out of the nest.

x

GX · 04-28-2008, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaseolus

Oh no Im am definitely not taking sides. I think you misunderstood, My intention is to comprehend this very human phenomenon... The need to believe in a higher power, rather than complete mental self reliance of the individual.

By the way your last statement is very subjective.. could you please specify which concept of god you are referring to, yours or that which is predominates at present?

I agree that the statement "I do not feel that God and Science are mutually exclusive" is quite subjective but not unrealistic. I can point to many phenomena that do not yet have a rational explanation such as Near Death experiences, Out of body experiences, reincarnation etc. that possibly point to some kind of continued existence of consciousness outside of the human body.

In answer to your question, I am referring to my concept of God. It may not "predominate" but it is not mine alone either. It is what is called "the new spirituality". It posits that a benevolent omnipresent creator and an afterlife exists, there is no such thing as "hell" "the devil" or "original sin". It transcends traditional religious thought on the basis that spirituality is not a religious constant but something quite dynamic and evolving as is everything else. It is described in the "conversations with god" books by Neale Donald Walsch which has sold millions worldwide.

To answer your previous question, examples of "Mine is not a better way or the only way but merely another way". This was a quote in one of the "conversations with god" books which is quite a movement but not a religion or a cult. It clearly states that its ok to disagree with concepts there and to use what feels right for you and to not make that a new absolutist religion. I have also seen some Jewish and Hindu and Buddhist leaders on Larry King preach this concept as well. Unfortunately, the christian representative didnt concur. I doubt muslims would concur either.

shadowind · 04-28-2008, 05:26 PM

the world without relgion,
it would be less to fight over,
but we would still find some reason to kill each other probally
or some way to control people.

i don't think alot would change neccassarly, it would depend if people became depressed about no meaning given to them, about them being the closest thing to god, or if they would be happy about it, it really just depends on how people would look at it, perception. i really think the difference between everything and nothing is a simple as a shift of the eye, but oh how difficult that can be.