Phaseolus

Lol.. I live im amsterdam but im not dutch. My parents are to blame for my good english..

By the way theres a question I want to ask you. Did you ever believe in God or religion and if so how was the transition to your present state and are you better off?

romansh

Sorry .. Just that I am impressed by Holland as a nation. Not without problems ... but there are not many better role models.

Yes .. I suppose .... at the relative old age of 17, I was confirmed. Tried really hard to believe but even during confirmation classes I was having problems reconciling the trinity and more. Could never take the bible literally. At 22 got married in a church, my wife would have been happy with registry office. But by this time I was loosing Christianity big time, but believed in a god. So a church was as good as any place to appease the family pressures.

I think by associating with people who were silent regarding their religion allowed me to have an easy (slow) transition to devout agnisticism.

Am I better off? Now I am at ease. Despite any evidence to the contrary I am a logical person, and try real hard to be honest. Now I can reconcile my logic and be honest (try to) with myself.

Hope this helps

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

GX

I LOVE Amsterdam! Is "Homegrown fantasy" still around? It is a very cool sidewalk cafe "coffee shop" close to the train station in downtown amsterdam.... I believe "the grasshopper" was close to it as well. Is that still around?

Its a great place to be if you believe in God as well! God has nothing against pleasures of the flesh. Only religion does. Religion doesnt own God...

As far as your original question, yes, the world would be a better place. Religion posits unyielding absolute truths. If the answers about God and spiritual truths were left open to better answers as they came along such as science does, the world would be a much better place. How would one qualify "better answers"? Simple, by asking the question "what would love do?"

pseudonous

I think we would be better off without religions based in and on a theology. Most, if not all, the disagreements I have with religions is there basis in unfounded beliefs which are not in anyway related to ethics. I do think that religion may be a good foundation for ethics since they are not rooted in truth. Certainly, I think trying to found ethics on science or logic instead of religion has the potential to be worse as this can easily give a false impression of certainty where none exists.

__________________
"One is most dishonest to one's god: he is not allowed to sin." - Nietzsche

romansh

It is as AB would say it is people ... not some 'ology.
I suspect pseudo you are assuming everyone is going to be enlightened just like we are?

Game theory points to a 'tit for tat' strategy not that dissimilar to the dichotomy of the old and new testaments.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

pseudonous

romansh,

Perhaps, I am thinking others can be enlightened; it is an error I often make, but I don't think I am in this case. My thought was that people don't often think critically and do turn to religion. Therefore, we might be better off, if there were a religion which focused on ethics rather than dogmatic belief. I also think this religion could be good for people that overestimate the ability of science and logic to address matters of ethics.

The 'tit for tat' strategy is actually a good example of this, as many people take it as a scientific basis for ethics. Yet, science can only address descriptive ethics which the 'tit for tat' idea shows. Ethics, as rules to live by, are still no more than matters of volition. This form of ethics is not amenable to truth functional logic or science.

__________________
"One is most dishonest to one's god: he is not allowed to sin." - Nietzsche

Phaseolus

GX, you say the world would be a better place without religion, to some extent I agree with you. What about just simple faith/belief in a higher power?
Most would say the former is an inevitable derivation of the latter, you cant possibly have one with out the other. Let me get down to the crux of the subject... Do you think that the ability to survive with out the knowledge/belief of/in some higher benevolent, omnipotent god/protector is within most human beings? Every one is welcome to answer this question please.

Phaseolus

Oh and to answer your first question .. i think the grass hopper is still there, not sure about the other one.. I dont do any form of drugs so im probably the wrong person to ask..lol ..and yeah amsterdam is incredible.. as Romansh pointed out.."there are not many better role models"

pseudonous

"Let me get down to the crux of the subject... Do you think that the ability to survive with out the knowledge/belief of/in some higher benevolent, omnipotent god/protector is within most human beings? Every one is welcome to answer this question please."

I would say absolutely the ability to survive without a belief in a higher power is within most human beings. I think most people do lack such a belief at some point which demonstrates they are capable. I am also under the impression that there are and were societies comprised mostly of secular people. So it would seem odd if it was the case that people in general could not go thier whole lives without such belief.

__________________
"One is most dishonest to one's god: he is not allowed to sin." - Nietzsche

GX

IMHO, I believe that a simple faith in a higher power is something that everyone believes in, they just define it differently. For atheists, perhaps science, knowledge and the universe are a higher power. Agnostics do not know what it is or if it is but are keeping an open mind and are searching. Most religionists have a faith in a higher power and "know what it is" but believe that theirs is the ultimate truth and everyone else is wrong...

I totally disagree with this statement. If we can get all religions to adopt the following statement, there would no longer be religious strife or wars: "My way is not a better way or the only way but merely another way". There are already non-religious spiritual movements and some spiritual leaders in mainstream theologies that are coming around to this concept that adopt a live and let live policy as far as their spiritual beliefs. I cannot imagine a God who says "there only one way to get in my good graces and one truth and religion x is it" nor can many others. Humanity IMHO is ready to break through to this kind of new spirituality.

No. Since the beginning of time mankind has yearned for answers as to where he came from and will always seek this out either via science, mysticism, religion, astrology etc.