to_hobbes

Ideas are not some meta-physical things that exist apart from real objects in a separate world of abstract objects. Ideas are actual physical objects with mass, not too different than a droplet of water, or a grain of sand.

How is this so? When we say "idea" in conversation we are really talking about two different things. The first thing is those energetic patterns existing in your own brain. Ideas are like the code that make up the software of your mind, which runs on the hardware of your brain. Those are "ideas": the energetic modules of brain code.

The second thing that "idea" has come to mean in conversation is what I call a "concept", like the number zero, or concept of equality. A concept is actually different than an idea. A concept is the set of all ideas (the things in your brain) that are similar across all minds.

No two ideas are alike -- the idea of "zero" as an energetic pattern in your brain is different than the idea of "zero" in my brain. Its just that "zero", as it exists in your brain, is similar enough to the one in my brain. They are so similar that we perceive the ideas as being equivalent, just like we perceive two droplets of water to be identical, even though there is no way the two could really be identical. So a concept is a set of all perceivably equivalent ideas. A concept does not exist until we perceive a similarity between ideas in your mind compared to my mind.

So ideas are just chemical energy structures in your brain. But remember, as Einstein said, energy is mass, therefore ideas are real things with mass.

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(By the way, it's all in your head.)

shadowind

en, i don't get how energy is mass, e=mc squard i know but isn't the basic unit for energy kg * Meters squard divided by seconds squard, with out mass what is energy, isn't it just nothing over seconds squard?
if we break apart the equation its kilograms * ((meters/seconds)*(meters/seconds)) which works, but i don't get the idea of pure energy. yea i can see how ideas are just chemicals and eletrical moments in the brain, but pure energy i don't get, rearange the equation we get M=E/c squard im confuzeled.

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remember "for mere impulse of appetite is slavery, while obedience to a law which we prescirbe to oursleves is liberty"-rousseau: the concept of the general will "if we can not reconcile all opions, then let us endeavour to unite all hearts."-?"to be is to be perceived"-? "‘We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know’-Robert G. Ingersoll

to_hobbes

Ok, I think it goes like this:
Power = Force*Dist ---> e.g. Newton-Meters or Watts
Force = Mass*Accel
Power = Mass*Accel*Dist/Time
Accel = Dist/(Time*Time)
Power = Mass*Dist*Dist/(Time*Time*Time)
Energy = Power*Time ---> e.g. Kilowatt-Hours or Joules
Energy = Mass*Dist*Dist*Time/(Time*Time*Time)
Energy = Mass*Dist*Dist/(Time*Time)
Energy = Mass*(Dist/Time)*(Dist/Time)
Veloc = Dist/Time
Energy = Mass*Veloc*Veloc

The real genius of Einstein was that he realized you can plug the speed-of-light constant into the "Veloc" part of that equation to get the final result:
E=mc^2
in other words, "Energy is mass", or "Mass is energy" -- they are one in the same because the speed of light never changes.

Cool So then ideas have mass. Yeah, we're on the same "wavelength" on that part.

__________________
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(By the way, it's all in your head.)

Og

Energy and mass are both PROPERTIES of matter. They are not physical things... Matter itself is the physical thing.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
Satchitananda - True Being, Pure Consciousness, and Bliss
Tat Tvam Asi - Thou art That.
You & I, no distinction.
Mettā & Namaste

to_hobbes

I guess you're right. But chemical energy, whether it is in a battery or in your brain, is quantifiable just like photons or electrons, and therefore are also "physical things". It's just that matter (made of atoms) is a "physical thing" that exists in a different state than photons or electrons which are also physical things.

This is my understanding of it, but I didn't want to turn this into a debate about quantum physics. I just like the concept that ideas are physical things.

__________________
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(By the way, it's all in your head.)

Og

I agree. An idea is as real as this forum is and as real as the spell checker in MS word is. An idea is as real as a person is in a picture is real. It's as real as the text on this screen is real. It's a pattern of things that we recognize and treat as a bound unit to which we associate meaning.

These things, however, don't have intrinsic identity. They are composed entirely of things that are "not it"... They only have identity due to the organization of their components and how they interact with our perception of the world they reside in.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
Satchitananda - True Being, Pure Consciousness, and Bliss
Tat Tvam Asi - Thou art That.
You & I, no distinction.
Mettā & Namaste

to_hobbes

Yes, but I would argue that this is no different than any other form of matter which we are only able to observe because of a large structure of components: the structure of atoms. Atoms do not have any intrinsic identity either.

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(By the way, it's all in your head.)

B-continum

Mind the bump...

From what I understand from this then is that objects we perceive (see, feel, taste) are organized by our mind and are given an identity by our mind. Matter then (from my interpretation of things) is mind-dependent.

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"If you want to make God laugh, tell him your future plans" - Woody Allen

"I have too much respect for the idea of God to make it responsible for such an absurd world." - Georges Duhamel

"What does an agnostic, dyslexic insomniac do? Stays up all night and wonders if there is a dog." -Unknown

shadowind

how we associate and catagorise things yea

__________________
remember "for mere impulse of appetite is slavery, while obedience to a law which we prescirbe to oursleves is liberty"-rousseau: the concept of the general will "if we can not reconcile all opions, then let us endeavour to unite all hearts."-?"to be is to be perceived"-? "‘We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know’-Robert G. Ingersoll

to_hobbes

I would say "yes" to your statement that objects we perceive are given an identity by our mind. But I don't think matter is mind-dependent.

The identity that your mind assigns to an object is itself an object, which exists as data in your mind. The data object in your mind (the idea) and the real object outside of your mind (the non-idea) are two different real things, independent of each other.

The matter existing outside of your mind, like a teacup for example, reflects light, takes up space, and does other things which people can detect, but the teacup exists outside of your mind; it is a "non-idea". When you detect it, a data-copy of the teacup is created by your mind, and other people's mind will do the same. Now, your data-copy (your idea) of the teacup is definitely different than anyone else's data-copy/idea, and is not the same as the actual teacup itself. But everything, including the teacup, your idea, my idea, and anyone's idea or interpretation of the teacup are all separate, existing, independent, real objects in the universe.

__________________
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(By the way, it's all in your head.)