to_hobbes

In spite of all I said in my other two posts, I can agree with this.

Who cares if the myths of Christianity are not accurate. The point is, the religion is a full working set of ideas that has had a very long time to cultivate and grow. Believing in religion need not be about rational interpretations of an otherwise nonsensical text. It's about how the faith helps you in your daily life.

I don't agree with quantum mechanics being a belief system, it's an established science -- I strongly assert that science and faith are logical opposites. But we've argued about this in another thread, it's not too important here but I thought I would mention that.

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(By the way, it's all in your head.)

john76

I think it depends on what criterion you want to use to identify 'myth.' If the only benchmark is that 'historical stuff' can't be established with certainty, then Caesar never defeated Pompei. From my point of view, so much of the "Christian stuff" can be shown to be pre-figured in earlier Pagan mythology, the honus falls clearly on the believers to defend their position that Jesus actually lived and did the things he is said to have done. 'GI' mentions this in regards to some sources, but better sources are Robert M. Price, Tom Harpur and Earl Doherty. Cheers; John

PsiCop

About Christianity-as-mythology: Christianity contains mythology, yes, but it is more than "just" a package of mythology. It has ritual components, moral and ethical directives, and much more. Of course, one can define the term "mythology" so broadly as to make almost everything "mythology" -- and as great as he was, Campbell (especially toward the end of his life) tended to do just that. This position can be, and often is, overstated.

About Christians' beliefs about who Jesus was and what he did: While a majority of Christians probably believe he did most of the things attributed to him in the gospels, I'm betting you'll find that a significant number are willing to accept that the stories are just that, stories that make a point or teach a lesson, and that they are not all that concerned with whether or not they're precise history of true events which really took place exactly as described. In short, not all Christians are fundamentalists or literalists.

As for Jesus being a magus, that term in the 1st century Near East had a specific meaning, and it referred to "sorcerers" or "wise men" or "sages" or priests of a Zoroastrian type. While it's vogue among some, now, to posit that Jesus was actually a closet Zoroastrian, or a Buddhist, or what-have-you, this is not suggested by the record we have; these are anachronistic interpretations. They're especially complicated by the fact that we don't even know, with certainty, if there was a "Jesus" in the first place.

Early Christianity had many overlaps with many other religious traditions in the eastern Roman Empire; one can look back, from our 21st century viewpoint, see many "linkages," and draw conclusions about it, but the reality is far more muddled than most would like to admit. Christianity as we know it is a product of intense and profound syncretism, or an admixture of many religious notions, large and small. Boring in on one or another would be a mistake.

Og

Campbell said "Myth is 'other people's' religion"

He also described what he called the 4 functions of a functional mythology. These were "Cosmological, Mystical, Sociological, and Pedagogical." I'm sure you can easily get the details of these anywhere on the web. This would allow for myth to cover the things you added up there. Ritual components, for example, fit the pedagogical function. Moral and ethical directives fit the sociological function. etc...

If you're just going to define the term myth to include descriptions of supernatural entities and their properties, I think you're selling yourself short. We don't call the Odyssey a myth, but we call other stories of gods myths. We don't call Lord of the Rings a myth. There's fiction/fantasy, and then there is myth. Details about the supernatural dudes and their tools (i.e. orcs and rings etc) are just fiction unless they are incorporated into a society and give the people an idea about their place in the universe. This is a true myth.

I don't agree that campbell was casting his net too wide.

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Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
Satchitananda - True Being, Pure Consciousness, and Bliss
Tat Tvam Asi - Thou art That.
You & I, no distinction.
Mettā & Namaste

PsiCop

Actually, I dispute whether or not Tolkien's literature constitutes a mythology. He certainly designed it to be sort of a substitute and/or supplemental mythology for his own British tradition. And I'd say that knowledge of his literature is fairly widespread, and that the themes underlying it ... such as the value of persistence, mercy, courage, etc. ... are well-known and widely admired. About the only thing about it which separates it from ancient mythology is that there is no ritual accompanying it, no means of "acting out" the tales that comprise it. (I suppose, however, that there might actually be some "Arda-ists" out there who are trying to construct a Tolkien-esque religion of sorts, I really have no idea.)

As for Campbell, he cast his net so wide, that he ended up spinning off whole new nets of his own. For instance, his position is that each mythology is buttressed by a much-larger, underlying collection of archetypes and themes; each specific mythology is merely a reflection of it. It's all very metaphysical, and very Jungian. I suppose if one accepts it, then one could thereafter discern some sort of uber-uber-mythology underlying Campbell's uber-mythology, and on and on and on. I have to wonder how useful any of it really is, except to inject psychoanalysis into anthropology.

Phaseolus

In my humble opinion (^_^) all religions are steeped in mythology. Christianity is no exception. However I am convinced that Jesus Christ did exist, irrefutable proof exists in its favour and though he had no more magical power than you or I, he was a wise benevolent man in the same vein as say Gandhi or Mother Theressa for example who wanted to make the world a better place through his teachings and philosophies. The cause for his life being so shrouded in magic/mythology I think is mainly dude to the absence of adequate/transparent information recording/storage during that era.

AB517

It was a common pract back then too.

Skepticologist

Much as I enjoy mythology, and, even more, Joseph Campbell's analysis of it, I think it's important to point out one critical fact: none of it is real.

I won't discount the value of metaphors and symbols, and their utility in putting universal truths into an understandable context. At the same time, I think it's crucial to keep in mind that mythology (and all religions are nothing more than mythological constructs) has value only to the extent that it helps reality become more understandable. It never replaces reality. And when it does, as it has for millions of Americans over the past 8 years, it can lead only to the kind of outcomes we'll be striving to overcome for the foreseeable future.

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"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

StuckInThe90s

Something that a lot of the religious right tend to ignore is that Christianity as we know it today has borrowed MUCH of their practices, beliefs, and even some imagery from early witchcraft which they tend to so often brand as "evil". The Bible itself has some historically accurate stories, but there's quite a bit of symbolism involved with their faith. Yes, when it comes down to it, most of Christianity is mythological.

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"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
~Marcus Aurelius