Lay down and die

SniB · 02-28-2008, 10:50 PM

When I look around, and I see what life is about for most of the world...it just seems pointless. It seems that everything is done out of the desire to procreate and continue the species.

Ok, I guess that's the purpose of life, right? Well, why do we accept that? It ultimately does not matter. I truly, truly doubt we will ever manage to get off of this earth, or out of this galaxy, whatever. Basically, I really believe humanity will end despite anyone's best efforts.

There are so many things we can't solve, and they're nowhere near as complex as ensuring humans survive the end of this galaxy. Suppose we somehow managed to do it. Then what? Ok, so then we're just this parasite that goes around depleting resources here and there. What is the point? We all just want to survive long enough to die. Hooray the human species lives for x more years...so?

Alright, well if we just focus on the present and worry about the future as it comes. Well things seem pretty bad right now and they only seem to be getting worse. Resources depleting, population growing...more and more problems. We're not solving them fast enough. We're somehow going to find a way to get more resources from another planet, when we can't even find a way to share what we have now?

Survival of the fittest right? Well, those of us who are actually considerate of others and would like to share everything equally...we're outnumbered and the other side grows every day. It really seems that for every person that is capable of thinking freely and really using their brain, there are a million more that just follow the herd and are just living life on auto-pilot. Get money, have kids, that's what life is...don't question it. Alright, now we have less resources because people think passing on their super important, super special genes is more important than trying to ease the suffering of those that are already here. They'll just consume as much as they can so that their unnecessary offspring have a better life than others who weren't lucky enough to be born in the same part of the world.

The worst part is, the only free thinkers I knew in my life have recently started to get religious. I can accept it, it's hard to face the truth and it's so much more comforting to think that there is someone out there that's looking out for you. Sometimes life gets so hard that you want that kind of comfort in order to keep your sanity. That's the case for one of them. The other is thinking with his dick and believes that some coincidences could be 'signs' from god that he should be with a certain girl. So another one shuts off their brain in order to satisfy that need/instinct to procreate.

The sad part is, he was one of the most independent thinkers I knew. It doesn't matter much, I guess I didn't have much hope for the rest of the population anyway. It's just sad to be alone in facing the truth. I'm so glad I found this place, I respect you all very much, seriously.

Back to the topic:

Well, I guess I should make the most of it while I'm here right? For all we know, we only get one shot at this life thing so let's just make it as pleasant as we can for ourselves and everybody else that we can.

That's basically all I have. I live to make life easier for anyone that I can. Nothing changes anyway and that example won't catch on. Suicide would be great if there was a way of doing it without hurting anyone.

If our existence is so pointless why don't we all just lay down and die? I must say, I'm very tempted to shut my own brain off and just live it up and stop thinking about everything. Ignorance is bliss...?

Sorry, the thoughts kind of fell apart at the end there. Basically, I can't really decide what matters.

The destination or the journey?

The destination is the same, we all die. So why not die now, it would only bring suffering to an end sooner. We certainly aren't going to get to a point where humans are selfless enough to ensure existence is pleasurable for everyone.

Well, who cares about the destination, the present is all that matters and it's the only thing we control. So let's make life as good for as many people as we can while we're here. It's very difficult to convince yourself to do this when you would rather not exist anyway.

Really, I'm so confused I don't even know what my point is...does it even matter? No...nothing matters, I think...I don't know!

I guess it all comes down to wishing I was able to just say, 'god did it' or 'oh yeah, there's an awesome eternity where everything's great...that's the goal, make it there!' or at the very least 'just have lots of sex...wooo! maybe kids' I just can't do that, all I can say is...for all I know this universe is infinitely large, with infinite possibilities...and a 'god' type of creature is one of them.

Buddha · 02-29-2008, 12:00 AM

Wow I totally agree with you. It's this kinda thought that made me create my "why not kill yourself" thread here. I just wish I could get my thoughts together in my head good enough to say what you said.

romansh · 02-29-2008, 12:48 AM

Hi SniB

Well mankind will eventually evolve or become extinct.
The sun will go super nova.
Worst of all, my team won't win on Saturday....
And generally the 'scene' if you let it could be described as a downer.

OK what am I going to about it? Fret? No!

In the mean, time I'm going to have fun, and try to be at ease.
I have to be careful by saying "trying make this world a better place" I could end up all religious ..... but maybe by accepting the world for what it is and embracing it ..... might just make it a better place?

all the best

Og · 02-29-2008, 09:08 AM

SniB,

I truly appreciate what you're feeling and it makes me angry that this is the strangle hold that religion puts on people. What you are experiencing is a solidification of the ego and that is the main tool which modern religion uses to control the populous.

Society and religion tells you that you are an individual with a boundary. This boundary is at your skin in physical space and at your birth and death in time. This is who and what you are and this thing arises in this world out of nothing (i.e. the soul is inserted), exists as a unique entity with an intrinsic identity (soul) and then is either extracted or simply disappears from the world at death.

This is the source of the frustration that you describe. And all these things that you've been taught to believe are a lie. They're a tool for keeping the social/religious beast that permeates our culture alive and kicking and propagating.

Here's the truth of the matter. It's the secret of the universe. It's the secret of your being.

You are not bound. You and I and all things are the same entity. We are all one and eternal. The ground of our being arises in forms like flowers budding and whithering. Like waves crashing on a shore, we arise, peak, crash, and return to the ocean and nothing has been created or destroyed.

Think about your brain. It's a massive interconnection of neurons that create memories, experience, and behavior. You have sensory inputs, memory storage, and processing capabilities unparalleled in machines that we know of. But what is this thing between your ears? It's a collection of cells connected to one another and translating chemical and electrical signals which trigger complex molecular and genetic changes which cause connections to change and adapt to stimuli.

Follow the light from your monitor into your head. It passes through your eye and stimulates your retina. The retina converts the light from this text into electrical signals and conducts the information back (through your optic nerve) to your visual cortex where the scene from both eyes is parsed and passed on to higher processing centers where things like text are detected and interpreted.

So how is the connection between you and me right now any different between the connection between your eye and your brain? Right now, I am a complex processing unit that is responding to the stimuli of your post (just as your brain is responding to your monitor's photons) and I am processing that information, comparing it to my memories and experience, and, due to the history that brought me to this point, I am creating this post.

When someone is with you and talks to you, they are creating vibrations in the air that stimulate your neurons just as your neurons create signals that stimulate downstream neurons.

The notion that you and I are some separate process is false. Just because my skin doesn't enfold your neurons doesn't mean we're not part of the same process.

Furthermore, NOTHING has intrinsic identity. Think of a flower or a table. Tell me what about that thing is intrinsically "table" or "flower." Each one is made of ENTIRELY non-flower or non-table components components. Wood, stem, metal, water, sunlight, dirt, etc. Each one of these components in turn is made entirely of non-it components. Just as you are.

You are a confluence of a events just like a tornado (see my avatar on these forums). A tornado is a confluence of meteorological events that creates something complex and powerful. You are a confluence of events and experiences that have been stored and compared in your brain and have adapted over time to the unique experiences that you have been exposed to. But every bit of who and what you are is an expression of the entire universe and NOT some isolated ego individual who has a limited existence.

The hindus have an image that they call "The Jeweled Net of Indra." This is an image of an infinite array of perfectly polished jewels in all directions. They are polished such that they reflect everything. If you look into any one jewel, you see all the other jewels in the net. When one jewel is moved, this motion reflects in every other jewel. Look into any one jewel and you see the entirety of existence.

The nihilism that you express here is unfortunate in my opinion, but it's just one reflection of the motion of the universe. It's driven by the actions of many other features of all things. I even love that word, "Universe." It sounds like it's saying "The one statement" - uni (one/unified) verse (statement).

If the human race extinguishes itself, so what? We are an expression of the entire realm of nature just as all other things are. You and I are both one process. The shared ground of all beings puts on and takes off bodies and assaults itself, loves itself, is indifferent to itself, and all manner of in-between interactions.

When you see this truth, you will realize that what you are will never die. Your ego that seems to have solidified so hard is part of the expression of nature just as every thought and experience you have is. This is the powerful truth that frees you from nihilism. When you realize your unity with the world around you and discard your notion of being separate from it. Then you see that all of that fighting and resource hogging and disagreement is all just the internal workings of a vast and beautiful network of nature. Each jewel reflecting those nearest the largest, but each jewel reflecting every other jewel.

That's what Jesus meant when he said "I and the Father are one." That's what all of Christianity misses out on. That we are identical with Christ and with the divine mystery of the universe.

Does that make any sense?

AB517 · 02-29-2008, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Og

SniB,

I truly appreciate what you're feeling and it makes me angry that this is the strangle hold that religion puts on people. What you are experiencing is a solidification of the ego and that is the main tool which modern religion uses to control the populous.

Society and religion tells you that you are an individual with a boundary. This boundary is at your skin in physical space and at your birth and death in time. This is who and what you are and this thing arises in this world out of nothing (i.e. the soul is inserted), exists as a unique entity with an intrinsic identity (soul) and then is either extracted or simply disappears from the world at death.

This is the source of the frustration that you describe. And all these things that you've been taught to believe are a lie. They're a tool for keeping the social/religious beast that permeates our culture alive and kicking and propagating.

Here's the truth of the matter. It's the secret of the universe. It's the secret of your being.

You are not bound. You and I and all things are the same entity. We are all one and eternal. The ground of our being arises in forms like flowers budding and whithering. Like waves crashing on a shore, we arise, peak, crash, and return to the ocean and nothing has been created or destroyed.

Think about your brain. It's a massive interconnection of neurons that create memories, experience, and behavior. You have sensory inputs, memory storage, and processing capabilities unparalleled in machines that we know of. But what is this thing between your ears? It's a collection of cells connected to one another and translating chemical and electrical signals which trigger complex molecular and genetic changes which cause connections to change and adapt to stimuli.

Follow the light from your monitor into your head. It passes through your eye and stimulates your retina. The retina converts the light from this text into electrical signals and conducts the information back (through your optic nerve) to your visual cortex where the scene from both eyes is parsed and passed on to higher processing centers where things like text are detected and interpreted.

So how is the connection between you and me right now any different between the connection between your eye and your brain? Right now, I am a complex processing unit that is responding to the stimuli of your post (just as your brain is responding to your monitor's photons) and I am processing that information, comparing it to my memories and experience, and, due to the history that brought me to this point, I am creating this post.

When someone is with you and talks to you, they are creating vibrations in the air that stimulate your neurons just as your neurons create signals that stimulate downstream neurons.

The notion that you and I are some separate process is false. Just because my skin doesn't enfold your neurons doesn't mean we're not part of the same process.

Furthermore, NOTHING has intrinsic identity. Think of a flower or a table. Tell me what about that thing is intrinsically "table" or "flower." Each one is made of ENTIRELY non-flower or non-table components components. Wood, stem, metal, water, sunlight, dirt, etc. Each one of these components in turn is made entirely of non-it components. Just as you are.

You are a confluence of a events just like a tornado (see my avatar on these forums). A tornado is a confluence of meteorological events that creates something complex and powerful. You are a confluence of events and experiences that have been stored and compared in your brain and have adapted over time to the unique experiences that you have been exposed to. But every bit of who and what you are is an expression of the entire universe and NOT some isolated ego individual who has a limited existence.

The hindus have an image that they call "The Jeweled Net of Indra." This is an image of an infinite array of perfectly polished jewels in all directions. They are polished such that they reflect everything. If you look into any one jewel, you see all the other jewels in the net. When one jewel is moved, this motion reflects in every other jewel. Look into any one jewel and you see the entirety of existence.

The nihilism that you express here is unfortunate in my opinion, but it's just one reflection of the motion of the universe. It's driven by the actions of many other features of all things. I even love that word, "Universe." It sounds like it's saying "The one statement" - uni (one/unified) verse (statement).

If the human race extinguishes itself, so what? We are an expression of the entire realm of nature just as all other things are. You and I are both one process. The shared ground of all beings puts on and takes off bodies and assaults itself, loves itself, is indifferent to itself, and all manner of in-between interactions.

When you see this truth, you will realize that what you are will never die. Your ego that seems to have solidified so hard is part of the expression of nature just as every thought and experience you have is. This is the powerful truth that frees you from nihilism. When you realize your unity with the world around you and discard your notion of being separate from it. Then you see that all of that fighting and resource hogging and disagreement is all just the internal workings of a vast and beautiful network of nature. Each jewel reflecting those nearest the largest, but each jewel reflecting every other jewel.

That's what Jesus meant when he said "I and the Father are one." That's what all of Christianity misses out on. That we are identical with Christ and with the divine mystery of the universe.

Does that make any sense?

agreed.

Look up at the night sky.
Shine a flashlight on your face.
Burn your image onto the heavens and move on.

SniB · 02-29-2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Og

Does that make any sense?

Ok, so...if I choose to just end it all because that will get rid of my suffering...well, I haven't really got rid of my suffering. It wasn't mine to begin with. The universe has just scratched an itch which it created as a result of all the other interactions going on. The itch scratching will cause damage to the area around it as well and change the way things are there.

I will end up spread out on the fingernail of this universe, in a different arrangement...most likely without consciousness.

I think I understand what you're saying, it's just very difficult to remove myself, or I, or me, from 'my' experiences and 'my' thoughts.

Ok, so this is all eternal and maybe I've had 1000 consciousnesses before this one. Some good, some bad. If I live a good life and do good things, my actions will be reflected in those around me, and they will reflect it...and so on.

Wait, I'm not *doing* anything, things are just happening.

Ok, wait, my brain...our brain...what? How can I ask these questions, how can I be so sure of what I think, how can I choose what happens to me...or are you saying that I can't? There is no free will? Whatever I do and think is a result of what has been done...and they've done it because of what happened...ad infinitum.

Existence is torturous and there's no way out! This is hell.

If I understood you correctly, then I must say I don't think I'm ready to accept that there is no free will. It's my emergency eject button, and without that, well...I am truly insignificant.

I just don't want to exist and you're saying I don't have a choice, I/We must exist in some form or another. Ok, well why couldn't I have been a table. I'd rather not 'think'.

Ok, well, entropy is my friend.

Entropy will save the day. Entropy will end this existence. Maybe everything in the universe up to this point has lead to this collection of cells that 'I' call 'me' realizing this very thing and it is now 'my' duty to generate as much entropy as possible. The universe has decided it does not want to exist and this is how it has manifested itself.

We must do its bidding.

It thinks.

SniB · 02-29-2008, 01:43 PM

wow...

that is perfect

I am a musician, I will write music that gets lots of people moving, I'll crank those amps, I'll generate so much entropy.

At the same time, I'm also an engineering student and I could specialize in thermodynamics (it would just be a few more courses). I will design equipment that makes people's lives easier...while at the same time operating at very high temperatures and generating lots of entropy.

Is this all coincidence...wait, there are no coincidences...so this is what is being asked of me?

Hmm...

have I gone crazy?

SniB · 02-29-2008, 01:54 PM

Wow...it really all makes sense from that perspective.

The instinct to breed that is so evident...we are just making sure there will be more entropy generators. The population grows, GOOD! very very good! Do you know how much more energy we're using up, and are never going to be able to recover?

Let's all play sports, a bunch of extra moving and using energy and entropy generation.

So, let's have kids, play sports, go drinking and dancing, just going out to 'have a good time' Because all these things are using up and converting it to a less useful form until eventually there will be none left to use and the universe just stops.

So everybody that I thought was an idiot for just going through life on auto-pilot...they actually have it right. They are doing what the universe wants, they did it just by following everyone else.

It took me a while to catch on, I guess I'm a defective part of the universe...but still, I understand now...and it actually leads me down the socially acceptable paths of just having a good time, being positive, lively, etc.

This is why it is so socially unacceptable to be depressed and have such very different thoughts? Because you're going against what the universe wants? Suicide really is selfish, you could have accelerated the death of the universe in human form much more than any other form. We're the perfect destroyers of the universe.

Everything in existence has all lead up to creating this species, with the ability to create these technologies that ensures we are all on track towards doing what it wants.

'god' is the universe and wants to die.

I realize this sounds crazy, but I am still open-minded, at least I think I am...or I have been made to be so...well, whatever, I just seem to have had a humongous rush of ideas that all link back to this principle of...everybody generating entropy!

It also seems that the moral codes can all be derived from the principle that:

Entropy generation and actions that lead to more of it/accelerate it are good. Everything else is bad. Murder is bad...you just reduced the effectiveness of the big entropy generation machine that we are. War is bad. Celebrations are good, we are all generating lots of entropy, hooray!

Still developing the idea...or still absorbing it. I/We just wanted to get it out there.

Og · 02-29-2008, 03:35 PM

That's some crazy strong anthropomorphizing of the universe.

nakamichi680zx · 02-29-2008, 03:56 PM

SniB:

My heart aches to see anyone with such a perception of the world. You are neither imperfect, nor is there any real death (just transitions of energy). So offing yourself neither adds nor detracts from the oneness of the Universe.

The question now may appear to be: so the world as you perceive it is not apparently to your "liking" and seems pointless. What does that mean to you?

You are a meaning-making-machine SniB and I put to you the following quote that I memorized from The Forum:

"Life is empty and meaningless. And it does not mean anything that it does not mean anything."

You have a choice each and every second of your imagined being; so spending time worrying about what everything means is not what you want to waste cycles on--giving it meaning wiil not change anything exterior to you by doing so.

What you want to do is adjust the window of your perception. YOU have the control over that mechanism; the size, shape, color, brightness and interpretation of what comes through that window. What you do with it is what becomes what you see.

It's HOW you see that creates WHAT you see.

At the risk of sounding Bhuddist (which I am not), I present for your consideration The Four Noble Truths:

Life means suffering.
The origin of suffering is attachment.
The cessation of suffering is attainable.
The path to the cessation of suffering.

And how to free yourself from the suffering in the The Noble Eightfold Path

Right View [Wisdom]
Right Intention [Wisdom]
Right Speech [Ethical Conduct]
Right Action [Ethical Conduct]
Right Livelihood [Ethical Conduct]
Right Effort [Mental Development]
Right Mindfulness [Mental Development]
Right Concentration [Mental Development]

Possibly the one thing you might be is so deep into this illusion that you cannot see that this is what it is.

Alternately, at the risk of sounding Christian (which I am almost certainly at this point not), there also is a list of 10 illusions that are listed in the Conversations with God book series (Each one builds off the other) which are actually very Zen-like in their logic and their source, so I use them here only to try and help free your mind. If you like, replace the word God with "the Universe".

God has an agenda. (need exists)
The outcome of life is in doubt. (failure exists)
You are separate from God. (disunity exists)
There is not enough. (insufficiency exists)
There is something you have to do. (requirement exists)
If you do not do it, you will punished. (judgment exists)
The punishment is everlasting damnation. (condemnation exists)
Love is, therefore, conditional. (conditionality exists)
Knowing and meeting the conditions renders you superior. (superiority exists)
You will not know that these are illusions. (ignorance exists)

I don't know if any of this has helped or will add something to your processing, but I hope that it will ease your mind some.