Agnostic about other things? - Page 3

GX · 02-27-2008, 10:19 PM

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Originally Posted by to_hobbes

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Originally Posted by GX

I definitely believe in psychic power from an experience I had. My best friend passed away suddenly a little over a year ago. My other friend (who never knew the friend who passed away) convinced me to go out with him to his new girlfriend’s place for drinks and revelry to get my mind off things. He doesn’t tell me his girlfriend is psychic (and a damn good one who doesn’t do it for a living). Anyway at the end of the night she felt my deceased friends presence and started rattling off a bunch of stuff about him that she couldnt possibly have known that only I knew that made my jaw drop.

I don't want to trivialize your experience, I just to throw in my own two cents on this.

I think scientific skepticism is the most important ability humans possess and if anyone can call themselves a scientist, it is a scientist's obligation and duty to demand a rational explanation for anything we witness. If I saw with my own two eyes Jesus walking on water, I would demand he do it again so I could figure out how. If he refused, I would demand to know how he did it, and as a scientist I must question how he did it. As a scientist, I must not accept that it was a miracle to be a valid answer. A scientist never accepts supernatural explanations -- we have a moral obligation to use our "God-given gift" of figuring out how the universe works, for the benefit of all mankind.

Thus I would have to say that the psychic probably had initially obtained a lot more information about your friend than he/she let you know. But if would like a way to talk to your departed friend, I unfortunately can't help. So it would be rude of me to tell you not to believe the psychic, and I'll just shut up now.

Must have missed this one...
I didnt ask for a way to talk to my departed friend nor did I request it. She just offered it up. And you cant believe how shocked and disappointed I am that you cant help!

It would have been impossible for this psychic to have obtained any information about my friend let alone "alot more".
1) This was not a professional psychic but a girl my friend had just started to date and thus there was no ulterior motive professional or otherwise.
2) The deceased and my friend had no interaction whatsoever and never knew of each other at all nor did he know the deceased others friends. It was a total disconnect. I never revealed my deceased friends name to either of them. I just told my friend that a childhood friend had died and that was it.
3) The event I attended was a pre planned party that many attended and was not something set up specifically to make me feel better and it took place several days after the death.
4) We both live in the Chicago area which is a large metropolitan area which also has an immense suburban area (3 to 4 million residents live in Chicago, around 12 million live in its suburbs). The deceased lived in the far suburbs. The obituary didnt appear in the newspaper until after the party.

Given this information, please tell me, how on earth this girl could have obtained such personal information on my friend? I would love to know! BTW, I not trying to convince you or anyone, Im just stating my experience here, but I am hoping you can help me unravel this riddle!

GX

Og · 02-28-2008, 07:03 AM

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Originally Posted by Om

I haven't been around enough to know quite where you're coming from with this, so just to cover my bases ...

1) I'm not disagreeing with you. I understand you to be saying that all phenomena fall into 1 of 2 categories: natural, knowable events and processes we can identify today, or natural, knowable events and processes we can or have not yet been able to identify. You're also saying that anyone who would categorize a phenomenon as anything other than occurring in 1 of the 2 categories above is either willfully or unintentionally ignorant of science, and indulging in fantasy at best, foolishness at worst.

If I have misinterpreted you, lemme know. If not ... well, there we are.

All is good Om. I know we're on the same page. I not trying to be some juggernaut who doesn't get that we agree and just keeps plodding on.

Fantasy at best, yes. And this could be a very useful thing for the mental health of the individual brought up in certain lifestyles and social contexts. Stripping the supernatural from many people is cruel. I assume that people here are not in that camp and their psyches don't depend crucially upon blind faith for their mental health.

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2) "Sobwake" and the silly quote context I used it in were merely a play on words. You know ... *sob* ... at a wake ...

Never mind. Wasn't that funny to begin with. Mostly I was just having a little fun with the idea that you seem to have a marked distaste for the word "supernatural," and was riffing off that. I'll stop now.

I thought it was funny and I was trying to figure out how to pronounce it

Keep on with it. I don't have a distaste for the word. I like to strongly address it because people who are seeking truth will say "what about the supernatural" and not realize that this concept is one of their greatest barriers.

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3) To get back to where we started (ath-supernatural vs. ag-supernatural), you do appear to allow for the possibility, however remote, that something commonly referred to as "supernatural"---say a dead rock legend showing up for work at a Tennessee gas station---might actually BE a remnant or echo or ghost or spirit or whatever label you want to use of someone who has clinically died. It would simply be a natural, knowable event or process we have not yet been able to identify.

I wouldn't say "simply," but yes. It must be. It interacts with the natural world and has purpose and behavior. It must be natural. It is a phenomena.

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Just for fun though ... what would you say about the possibility, however remote, that the sun will about face tonight and rise in the West tomorrow? Obviously, the evidence weighs heavily against it. In fact, everything we think we know about our universe prohibits it.

So if a bright eyed 8-year old comes up to you and asks, "But Dad, is it possible?", do you say "Nope, can't happen--finish your plantain," (Ath-) or take a deep breath, sigh, and say, "Well, I suppose it could ... just please don't tell your friends I said so." (Ag-)

I'd rather describe the nature of the earth orbiting the sun and inertia using clever methods that connected with the child's mind. I'd try to impress upon her the majesty of the cosmos in terms that a child can understand.

There's a difference between dealing with a forming brain that is still necessarily dependent on you and an adult through the intarweb on an agnostic forum

Om · 02-28-2008, 09:55 AM

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Originally Posted by Og

"So if a bright eyed 8-year old comes up to you and asks, "But Dad, is it possible?", do you say "Nope, can't happen--finish your plantain," (Ath-) or take a deep breath, sigh, and say, "Well, I suppose it could ... just please don't tell your friends I said so." (Ag-)

-- Om"

I'd rather describe the nature of the earth orbiting the sun and inertia using clever methods that connected with the child's mind. I'd try to impress upon her the majesty of the cosmos in terms that a child can understand.

There's a difference between dealing with a forming brain that is still necessarily dependent on you and an adult through the intarweb on an agnostic forum

Aha, you ARE a dreamer. Or maybe just really good with kids.

If the latter ... wish you'd been around when I went that route with each of the three 8-year-olds I've raised. Oh, I bordered on clever a couple times ... and I'm pretty sure they heard me ... and I think I may even have connected with their minds once or twice. Inevitably though, whether immediately following a session of such elevated parenting or at dinner a couple days later, we always cycled back to ...

"Pretty cool, Dad. So ... is it possible?"

I love my kids.

Meanwhile, and more germane to the discussion, with you 100% that that end result, be it in life or on an interweb forum, is rather less cute when you're discussing this kind of thing with a "grown up."

QuantumTheory · 03-24-2008, 09:53 PM

Personally, as an agnostic, I feel more skeptical towards psychics such as John Edwards in his crossing over program. I find that he tends to use phraseology and manipulative generalisations about people's personal despair when 'communicating' in the realm of the afterlife. Being agnostic means that you are defering your judgement as to whether you feel convinced or unconvinced about the existence of a God(s). This approach can also be applied to supernatural claims as ghosts, spirits, magic, occult. Whilst I have no personal belief in these supernatural claims, I do not qualify as an atheist because I don't conclude that these subjects don't exist in a physical context.