AB517

Exactly,

A meter is a meter because we ALL say (agree on) it is that distance.

Herra1

[quote=Og;24591]"They" do not say that anything is proven. In fact, science/engineering does not deal in absolute proof. They only deal in evidence and observation relative to control (an arbitrary point). It's why power outlets (no matter where you are on the planet) require at least two plug holes. One is a voltage (a statement, for example) and the other is a reference point (control/axiom). This is the way of all things in science and engineering.

The universe is demonstrably relative in all things. Measure the speed of light. Then step on a train and measure it again. You get the same velocity measure regardless of your speed relative between two reference frames.

Are You suggesting that Newtons laws of motion or Einsteins theories are not proven ?
Lets have an example, shall we ?
Radioactivity.
When, or how You know, how to deal with radioactive material ?
You calculate, they are not You regular ones or threes but with these number manipulations You can do something with radioactivity.

Proof is a term reserved for mathematics where there are axioms and a internally consistent framework that is otherwise arbitrary. The number one is just a defined concept. Want to know what it means? Look inside someone's brain and see what neurons are firing when they think of the number one. Then you'll have their definition of one. Look in a math book and you'll have the "what is" for the number one that is generally agreed upon.

IF YOU have strong feelings of hate, or maybe even loathe the word proof,
i can substitute it with, valid argument with true premises.
I genuinly thought that i was in philosophy pages.

Herra1

Ah, and what is meter then ? A system to calculate the distance, maybe You say ?
And what is a kilo, then ? A system to calculate weight, You maybe say ?

Okay.

There are other ways also, to calculate/measure the distance or weight, kilometer or tonne. We have to keep that in mind.
Now, lets say, that the distance we want to travel from 500 meters is 1 meter.
1m times 500= 500 meters, With me ?
Now lets substitute the 500 meter with something really novel, like National Football League.
NFL has 32 teams and one of them is called NY Giants.
So NFL=500, NYG=1. (We can argue that NY Jets are not the same as NYG but that is beside the point, and the point is), how many members/players do NYG have ?

1 NFL is made out of teams, one which happens to be NYG.
1 nation is made out of so many citizens.
1m is made out of 100cm.
1kilo is made out of 100 kilograms.
And, yes we have been agreed upon what means NFL, nation, meter or kilo.

Danlo

This thread is spinning me out...

Og

Yes. Law does not mean proven. It means "well supported by evidence." This is why there is the "THEORY of relativity" or the "THEORY of evolution." Many branches of science do not use the term "law." Nothing is proven in science. Things may only be "failed to be disproven."

No. I can only use numbers and calculations to get my mind in line with what is going on in the real world around me. The calculations have nothing to do with radioactivity. They have only to do with getting my mind in tune with observations.

I have no such feelings towards the word "proof"... It is clearly only applied when working within a framework of axioms. It has nothing to do with understanding the physical world. It only has to do with reconciling your mind to a representation of that physical world. Science does not deal in proofs when tasked with understanding the physical world.

A valid argument is quite a different thing than a proof. A valid argument is a theory. It is something that has failed to be disproven. It has nothing to do with premises or their "truth"... As for the last sarcastic remark, I don't see how it's very useful in this conversation. You clearly have some wrong ideas about how science works and about how the scientific mind approaches the world.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Herra1

You do have intresting ideas, i am starting to enjoy this.

Is there, can there be, truth ?
A true thing that is 100% undilluted truth ?

The way i see valid arguments in science, is that these valid arguments get improved upon.
So are You instrumentalist, You dont feel that the sciences are getting any closer to THE truth ?

How You see causality, do You deny it ?

Someone made a definition of agnostic to me,"We are being agnostic for things that cant be proven "
If there is no valid arguments with true premises, if we allways have to define our definitions more, then it follows that You have to doubt Yourself, too.
Or of course You can allways adopt a solipstic stance and think that only You exist.

Little bit more about radioactivity.
Uranium (for a arguments sake) is very radioactive material.
Someone digs it from the ground.
And then by pure accidents, few, there is a nuclear atomic plant, just like that, no mathematics involved ?

romansh

Firstly as radioactive materials go, uranium is not that radioactive.
Having said that there was a uranium deposit in Soumi that mangaged to concentrate itself enough to go critical. Environmental engineers have used this deposit to study the transport of the resulting radionucleides through the ground water. The average American back yard contains about a kilogram o uranium.

Of course mathematics is involved, as are graphs, drawings, hammers, drills, machinery, etc and a lot of thought. Mathematics is just a tool.... infact the ideas, laws, theories etc are just like a map.... not totally accurate but good enough to get stuff done.... pretty much like everything else in life.

Trust me, half lives are an observed phenomenon.... nevertheless they are a man made invention. A tool for predicting a physical, biological or chemical behaviour.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Herra1

So what do You think, can we ever understand the number 1 ?
Or is it like infinity ?
Too abstract to get hold of ? Me, i tend to think so.
Because im really facinated by what Newton did.
Showed that these abstractions that we draw and think, the world somehow corresponds or have relationship to them.

Og

What do you mean by "understand" then?

The abstractions that we draw and think do not correspond to anything. They are internal representations of external concepts. Math is a pattern of neurons in our brain that helps us interact with the physical world.

The number 1 is just like a "spell checker" in a word processor. It isn't a real thing. A "spell checker" is a complex pattern of electrons in hardware and photons on the screen. It's not a "thing" any more than "1" or "calculus" is a thing.

I don't think you're using the term "understand" in a commonly defined sense.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

romansh

I don't particularly have a problem understanding a 'real' number, have not got my mind around the square root of minus one though.
In the examples you have quoted so far one euro, one dollar etc. they are not just numbers... the BIPM/scientists/engineers might describe them as a value of a quantity:

value of quantity = number x unit

So long as we agree on the numbering system and on the units we should have no problem understanding one another or numbers?

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams