Vinterland

As an atheist I used to believe this was purely an atheistic reason to be a vegetarian, but later I realised it is true both atheism and theism (typically Deist folk who tend to not make as many illogical claims as other theists). Since it deals with knowledge of God and reality I think agnostic is the most apt term because it is encompasses theism and atheism.

The purpose is to discuss with other agnostic vegetarians their reasons for being vegetarian.

---------
My reason

The agnostic tends to not discern evidence that justifies belief inan all powerful entity that gives objective meaning and morals to humans and should not assume that humans are objectively better or more worthy than animals. This agnostic realises that a dog or cow eating and farting is equally a great an 'acheivement' as Beethoven's 9th and than any value placed in any entity is subjective inas much as they know. Because of this, some atheists and theists place their personal value in human and other animal life, but try to make them as equal as possible.

Because of my natural bias, I always place greater value in those closest to me and that includes animals.

The initial reason that made me a vegetarian was simply because I hate to see suffering or to know somethign has suffered because of me, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately I still drink milk, I just love a tall cold glass of fresh milk squeezed from a large unnattractive mammal. Milkshakes are the best, chocolate milkshakes, strawberry milkshakes, strawberry chocolate milkshakes...mmm.

NotConvinced

Doesn't that in some way contribute to the suffering of cows on the whole?

Vinterland

Yes to the cows at the farm a few towns a way because that's where our milk comes from. I am in the process of cutting down my milk consumption but as I said; I really like the taste of natural milk so I haven't not completely made the transformation. Cutting back on meat was also a tedious process. I enjoyed meat very much as well and it took me three months to be able to resits cravings. It's all a process; if most people jump right into it it will not work for them.

greywolf90

the way i see it, animals eat us, so what's bad about eating animals?
and last time i checked, milking is a natural process for mammals.

__________________
"for there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."- Hamlet

Vinterland

Other animals are not known to be able to make the conscious decision to eat alternatives to meat. A lion killing a human or other animal is justified because it requires it to nourish itself whereas many humans can sustain a very healthy diet without meat.

My problem with milking is that cows are almost always forced to be give birth to calfs so that they continue to produce milk. This is not healthy for them and this is why I want to stop consuming dairy priducts soon.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

greywolf90

many species of bears are omnivors and can live exclusively on meat or plants depending on whichever is availuable. i'll agree that they do not possess the same reasoning as a human, and we can choose because we have the luxery of eating whatever we want. but if it was a matter of survival, you would have to take whatever you could get. i don't see anything wrong with being a veggie, but i think eating meat is biological and not immoral. do you define eggs as meat?

__________________
"for there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."- Hamlet

romansh

As an agnostic:
I am convinced by the evidence that we are omnivorous.
I could be convinced that we have no free will.
Life is red in tooth and claw

Enjoy

ps Does one only eat vegetables that have died naturally and fruits that have fallen?

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Vinterland

In a matter of survival, absolutely, IMO. Humans and animals in general have a biological predisposition to rape, but does that make it immoral? It makes it neither as much as I know. Yu're missing entirely the point of the discussion; as a science based person we cannot say if something is absolutely moral or immoral; only God can.

I'm not saying eating meat is immoral at all.

As am I. Humans require high levels of Omega 3 and 6 oils to be healthy which evidences that early humans had a diet based around sea animals.
Irrelevant; vegetables do not think or feel emotions that we animals do.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

romansh

To all intents and purposes I agree with you.
I'm not all that familiar with this but Jainism seems goes one step further..

there is, incidently, evidence when plant life is attacked by a predator it will release chemical "messages" to neighbouring related plants...... so we are still in an grey area

I don't mean to cramp your Calorie (kilojoule) input ......

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Vinterland

I'm reading abut it now...I don't see how it is logical to avoid eating living plants. Living organism, check; feels 'pain' as a defense mechanism, check; feels other emotions such as happiness, sadness, anger, etc, negative. Finally, they do not think.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”