bobleplask

It seems like to me that Astral "knows" he will fall to the ground if he steps of a building and NC "believes" he will fall to the ground.

But.. regarding truth. For something to be really true could it not be such a thing that was so true that no one could even make up something for saying it was untrue? That in all it's glory it was just true and nothing more?

And popcorn is horrible like that btw

__________________
If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor.
Albert Einstein

Og

Furthermore, a bird can step off of a building and not fall as we would. This is because he can create a relative force countering the gravity which is a relative force in and of itself.

General relativity also makes it clear that gravity is relative, and this is a experimentally verified fact. Velocity and gravitational fields have effects on time relative to velocities between reference frames. Astral is confused about what the terms absolute and relatives mean.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Astral

With enough effort some people can be fooled. God could personally reveal Himself to the entire world and announce His Existence. Soon after He could just disappear and leave us without proof. You can certainly believe that devout atheists will chalk it up to a parlor trick, and subservient agnostics would say who knows anyways.

The only time when truth will not be deniable, is at the time of Judgment. In His presence it will not be possible to lie, even unto yourself. But for now, here on earth, we are allowed to be as ignorant as we wish to be.

Skepticologist

I couldn't have said it better myself.

You are "allowed" to believe a fairy tale which is, at present, the predominant fairy tale with 1.2 billion adherents. But Islam is closing fast with slightly over 1.1 billion adherents.

You can be as ignorant as you want to be. But why do you want to be ignorant? To quote Matthew Prior, "From ignorance our comfort flows. The only wretched are the wise."

__________________
"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

greywolf90

astral- since you are non-denominational, and you seem to be anti-church, i'm wondering why you still believe the bible to be the ultimate truth. i remember you mentioning something about prophecy. do you think prediction that comes true was divine? was nostradamas inspired by god, or was my fortune cookie? what about mysticism and astrology? how are your prophecies any better than these? do you have any other reasons besides prophecy?

what makes the bible have any more thuth than any other religious texts? just because someone wrote something down and claiming it to be the truth does not make it so. and why do you read genisis and revelations literally? do you think a man could really know how everything was created without having actually seen it? not only that, but you think a man could also know how the world would end? i am very doubtful that these contain any literal truth.

__________________
"for there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."- Hamlet

Astral

Prophecy is quite the complex issue. Much study and knowledge must be had. But to keep things simple. Not all predictions to come true are divine. Astrology, mysticism, and gnosis all have some parts to play.

I do not take Genesis and Revelations literally. The bible is a gigantic puzzle, there are prophecy hints, keys, and ciphers all about the pages. In many cases things are spoken of literally, and others metaphorically and often times your only key word is a simile. This may occur very rapidly and seemingly without reason. But some simple things are better explained when comparing to different prophecy's and watching how they match up with each other even though they technically speak to 2 different things.

For example, the USA is referenced in the Bible, so is Russia, Britain, and Germany. The Catholic Church, Israel, and certain events. But I can tell you each and everyone was referenced in a metaphorical way. And no, these are not one of those "gimmick" codes in the bible things. You need nothing more than a set of eyes, reference material for history, and knowledge of current politics, geography, and dress code(inside snicker).

Even the U.N. is in reference but I am still waiting for more pieces of the puzzle and those are only obtainable in the future. I believe we are already through 5 of the 7 trumpets of revelations, and NO I am not a preterist in the least.

greywolf90

sorry, i thought you once implied that genisis could not be read metaphorically. yeah i think the weirdest bible decoding i've heard of is when they lay out the entire bible on a grid and in the original hebrew/greek. then they look for predictions like a giant cross-word. as for revelations, it seems like every generation thinks they will see it happen. we aren't the first ones to say that the world was ending and jesus was coming. iv'e heard arguments for why revelations is occuring, but they are typically war, famine, disease, etc. i just can't help but think: have humans ever existed without any of these? with prophecy, i could probably make some predictions, and over a long period of time, i think they would eventually come true if they were vague enough. i feel open to the possibility of prophecy, but it seems unlikely to me.

__________________
"for there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."- Hamlet

NotConvinced

Very much agreed.

Some things seem as true as we want them to be.

Astral

The bible is not some grid and does not work that way. Yes, some of those pattern recognition softwares are fun and entertaining, but not something to stake things on.

Prophecy in the Bible is by no means vague. It's pretty specific, it's just that it is not readily apparent how specific it is or to what it speaks.

Skepticologist

Which makes it basically the same as all the other parts of the bible. Any and all of it can mean any and everything anybody wants it to. And you wonder why I figured I'd be better off relying on logic and reason?

__________________
"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow