Astral

lol.... thats a pretty funny statement.

Good luck changing the relative universe. I am sure you will be sad to find out that nothing new is under the sun. And when the Sun begins to freeze us to death instead of warming us, be sure to let me know.

Og

First, analog computers exist that deal with a continuum of states just fine. Digital just means that there is a method in place to remove line noise in communications. In most digital systems, many on-off signals are used to form the basis of computation (i.e. 32 or 64 bits). It's approximating an analog computer with representations that are resistant to line noise. But just as in digital computers, there are analog multipliers, integrators, adders, etc.

The "very model of corporeal reality" you describe doesn't seem to jive with what we observe. The universe seems to ride on top of a sea of randomness (described by quantum mechanics). On the level of size and momentum that we inhabit, these effects are minuscule and are dwarfed by the smoothing effects of mass action (ensemble behavior of large numbers of particles).

There is no absolute position, voltage, gravitational force, energy, etc. Relativity is the nature of the universe. Absolutes are out the window.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Astral

Your posts are all over the place and non-consistent. You make Absolute statements and say its all relative. You deliver ultimatums and say thats not what you meant, then you provide misinformation on subjects that have been laid to rest long ago. Furthermore you don't seem to understand any Scientific principles or concepts to a usable degree.

Analog is hardly an argument against mine. That "sea of randomness" is explained as "a sea of absolutes" with Chaos math. For every effect there is a cause. They moved from Analog to digital to reduce inference so that all that "sea of randomness" does not pollute the data stream. NOTHING is random on a computer, analog or digital.

Just because you don't understand anything does not mean its all relative.

Or do you believe cause and effect is no longer relevant? Even in Quantum theory the universe ends if it becomes "effect and then cause". I am defeating you with scientific principles and you are offering up nothing more than philosophical unproven remarks. It's like talking with a brick wall.

I will no longer respond to any more of your posts until you gather a great deal more knowledge about that which you speak. When you show some consistency and reasonable knowledge I will be happy to chat with you once more.

Best Wishes,

Astral

romansh

Astral

May I ask what is your background?
I would like to get a sense of where your knowledge comes from.

Mine
I have a BSc in Chemistry
a PhD in Minerals Engineering
Over the last thirty I have taught science, researched better ways to make metals.
I read my copy of the New Scientist 51 issues a year.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

NotConvinced

If our understanding of it is imperfect, how do we know it even exists?

You would agree that we currently don't know everything there is to know about math yes? What if we learn 500 years from now that our current system of math is seriously flawed and not absolute? How then could we call it absolute now?

Agreed.

No matter how much digital logic you have in a system, it will always truly be analog. Digital signals are not absolute...when you look close enuf, you'll find they aren't all Highs or Lows, but many many many values rounded off to High or Low.
"I know the only unknowns are our knowledges."

Anyone else see a problem with that statement?

Og

Absolute statements about the nature of the universe? Describe specifically what you are referring to here. What is it about relativity and QM that i'm misquoting here? I have extensive coursework and applied work in the field of both biology (thermodynamics) and physics and degrees in both from ABET accredited institutions.

If you think what I'm claiming is wrong, I'd be happy to address individual points in order to clarify.


"Sea of absolutes"? The term yields 3 google hits that have no bearing on this conversation. So clearly it is not a term used in chaos math unless it has utterly avoided mention on the internet. Furthermore, chaos has nothing to do with randomness. Chaotic systems can be random, but all that chaos means is that two points diverge exponentially from one another as the system evolves. This is the definition of chaos in mathematical terms.

Randomness is the nature of the universe. This is an observed phenomena. Can you tell me when any atom in a piece of americium will decay? The answer is no because the wave functions represent a probability of decay. QM event are demonstrably random.

If you believe you understand the deterministic nature of the universe (versus the indeterminant nature that I'm describing) then please share. I'm sure the entire scientific community would be interested.

Cause and effect makes sense on scales that we live on (as I mentioned). This is where ensemble behavior (mass action) governs. On elemental scales, however, randomness governs. This is what I meant when I referred to a "sea of randomness."

If you want references to text books with repeatable experiments and the sum of the schools of QM and thermodynamics from the last 100 years, I'm happy to oblige. Just ask. There is nothing "unproven" about any of this other than that nothing is ever proven and these statements I make have the weight of evidence behind them.

Schrodinger's cat is not just some silly story. It accurately describes the observed indeterminent nature of the universe. How do you fit cause and effect into indeterminant nature of elementary particles?

You don't. On scales of 10^23 molecules (i.e. our scale), what you get is mass action. Randomness is effectively filtered out. This reality is exactly why computers can't get smaller in size without errors creeping into the behavior of transistors.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Astral

I am a nobody. That is my background. I do have certifications... nothing from college like yours, but I prefer to let my ideas speak for me and not my pieces of paper. I have lost all respect because in my field a piece of paper can be easy to get, but many people with them don't do very well.

If what you are asking, is the level of my education, then know that I am a high school dropout. I had A+B honor roll but I missed so many days they said they would not pass me. So I said ta-ta. My aptitude tests showed that I am on a College level with Math and Reading.

My I.Q. Tested to be around 135 ~ 140 placing me in the "gifted" category the test stated that my greatest strength is perception. But neither do I think I.Q. tests can effectively measure a persons abilities. A lot of people have gifts. And a lot of I.Q. test's test for knowledge and that creates an imbalance in statistics.

I do not equate IQ with Knowledge.
I do not equate Knowledge with Smart.
I do not equate Smart with IQ.
I do equate Experience with Knowledge.
I do equate Knowledge with Education.
I do not equate Education with a Piece of Paper.

If you wish to say I am ignorant because I could not bear to sit through a class and listen to some retard teach me things I already know then I can accept that.

School got in my way, therefore I removed it as an obstacle. I did this for myself, and neither do I recommend it for everyone. School is important, and education is necessary. I only got some certifications so people would at least take the time and consider that I might actually know what I am talking about or doing.

I follow the doctrine of know them by the fruits of their labors and not by what they say.

My knowledge comes from my desire to learn and learn and research. I want to learn more, but I have worldly duties that must be attended to and that cuts down on my personal time sometimes but that is life. I enjoy it and have very few complaints. I am generally a happy person.

NotConvinced

I believe it's exactly this type of assuming that's differing our views. You make this assumption, I don't.

So just because you don't understand it makes it absolute?
I believe cause and effect is relative to time. I believe that what we lack in understanding about time we also lack in understanding about cause and effect. Even if you are using scientific principles, you're still having to assume they're accurate and absolute. "Unproven remarks?" To prove requires proof, and proofs revolve around supposed absolutes, so to say we're not replying in absolutes, is more of a compliment than a detriment to our argument. If you're expecting to remain in the realm of absolutes when debating absolute truth ITSELF, then it seems you'll be getting to know that brick wall quite well.

Og

Please specify what you mean by misinformation. Also specify where you see my lack of understanding of scientific principles or concepts. Your comments are quite vague.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

Cause and effect is a perceived behavior of a massive number (ensemble) of elements. If you flip a coin a billion times, you'll get 50:50 ratio of heads to tails with a divergence of an extremely small amount.

This is the point of mass action. When people talk about billiard balls colliding and cause and effect, they are referring to the behavior of ensembles of particles.

The universe appears to be driven by cause and effect, but what you are experiencing is the entropy of a system driving the random behavior of a massive number of particles to a stable equilibrium.

This is basic thermodynamics. I recommend further study. The universe is demonstrably indeterminant.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are