LOGOS

Hello guys,

thought id post this topic which i had posted in another forum and see what you guys think.

Hello,

its been a while. Uhm, on my time off i have been doing alot of reading..and gardening in my new home with my heavenly wife. Being on holidays i have had a good chance to do abit more "the meaning of life" search.

I have read weather books the Bible and Hesiod to name a few. I still feel uncertain and realy deep about the point of existance and its birth.

I had a chance to speak to my wifes local priest ( the one who wed us 3 weeks ago) as i realy liked his character and his theological philosophy, i think its the manner that he speaks in that reels me in and grabs the attention of my ears. Anyways, i simply asked him of what he knew about the chaos without attaching theory behind it...he told me that this was the state of the world before God assembled everything....i paused and said so Chaos existed before God?

"No" he said, "its the way the universe was before God decided to put order into everything". I felt beaten at that point because i did not warm up to the convo..it was the spur of the moment.

I went home and did what i always do when there is nothing to do and i read books, a particular one which i felt was the best place to start. The Bible.

Genesis 1:2 poses not only a mystery to me, but a motive as to why the monotheistic religions try to put a lid in chaos.. Let us call the mystery: the case of the missing chaos. Historically, this verse virtually disappeared from theology by the fourth century, this is so evident because the chaos theory didnt spring up again about 100 years ago if im correct?(correct me please)

with its return though, i noticed in many of my books its realy agressive in explanation, and it real hits religion for a six ( a golfing term). Its excusable because it was hidden for such a long time, like it as if it was a crumb that was swept under the fundamental doctrine of religions. The church made sure of it as did many greedy leaders of civilisations that where so brain washed by religion.

Why am i questioning this, why is it so important? Because beginnings matter, and Genesis continues to materialize disproportionate effects. Not because it gives a pseudoscientific account of the origin of things, but because with an intuition only now achieved by science it poetically channels that "extreme sensi-tivity to initial conditions."

You see as i realy began to study and read the Genesis i began to see soemthing that i missed before, its as if its begging to reveal its influence which its root lies in the philosophy none other than the ancient Hellenes wisdom.

Theologians keep declaring that this creation by the Word from absolute nothing is the evident meaning of the Bible. Yet there is no such biblical teaching not in Genesis, not elsewhere. At most, God "calls into being the things that are not" (Rom 4:17) which posits a strong sense of God as creator of newness (cf. Heb 11:3; 2 Macc 7:28; John 1:1 for the other quotes used to back up this). Biblical texts may ignore or dread the chaos, but they never contradict the chaotic initial conditions obtaining "when God created."

How can God create chaos, if creating is ordering? And why creation of heaven and earth land in the first verse, when they occur only on the second and third day, respectively? No wonder theology put the lid on it.

For me this is a secret lesson in hermeneutics, a new word i learnt which means the true meaning. If you actualy read the opening of Genesis just a bit differently, the entire biblical system can shift. And because the second verse of the Bible is all about a complex chaotic system "and the earth was tohuvabohu and darkness was on the face of tehom and ruach elohim was vibrating over the face of the waters" might this theory of initial conditions not have something to tell us about theological content as well? Translate tohuvabohu "without form and wild." Tehom means "deep," "ocean," and "chaos."( do wiki search) Its not rocket science guys, the Greeks and other ancient civilisations gave truth to all and monotheists want to keep it to themselves. For good? i dont know, perhaps truth these days is impossible for anyone to realy accept...sometimes even for me. Which is why i always question. I still fail to see meaning though. But i am very confident in chaos...ist all around us....look at that weed grow amongst the frlowers, imagine the affect of your footstep among the ants micro world, destruction void and creation will always exists...whic is why our soul never dies and only transcendts. I now know that harmony can only be achieved in respective indivdual cases and beings. What is harmony to you can be chaos to the other. Eros and Psyche matter only attached by true goodness. The only thing i have trouble concluding is purpose.

Any thoughts would be apreciated.

__________________
One must not follow what is common; but, even though the Logos is common, most people live as though they possessed their own understanding of it. The common is what is open to all, what can be seen and heard by all. To see is to let in with open eyes what is open to view, i.e. what is lit up and revealed to all.

AB517

Hey,

I am not a good writer like rest of the people here.

God had to make this universe exactly the way it is for us to live and be here. I guess that you know some science. The nature of elementary particles hints at any number of possible configurations else where.

What we see and study is to be used for us to grow, evolve if you will, into what ever. Like the movie says.

This Universe is yours
Use it in peace
But be careful
It is what it is.

God hides nothing from us. Only Men do.

pseudonous

One interpretation I have been playing around with is that Gen 1:1 is actually the first reference to the chaos. For reference, I am using the NKJV.

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen. 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

I take this to mean that in the beginning god created the chaos. It is only in Gen. 1:3 that god begins to order this chaos. Taken this way, the bible does claim that god created the universe out of nothing.

The creation of Heaven on the second day refers to the creation of the firmament which separated the water above from those below.
The creation of land on the third day refers to the creation of dry land.

I have found an interesting interpretation of the beginning of genesis on youtube which you might find interesting. In this interpretation god only shapes the chaos or primeval matter, rather than creating it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaNnd...eature=related

As for your question ,
I would ask how can you create without destroying? And, if creating is to order then destroying is to disorder (or create chaos). So, it would seem to me, god must be capable of both if he is capable of either. However, it seems, even with this view something must have existed for god to destroy. Admittedly, this is not an answer; it is just my attempt to make sense of it.

__________________
"One is most dishonest to one's god: he is not allowed to sin." - Nietzsche

LOGOS

I understand peudonous, but still there are the laws of science which cannot be denied, and although chaos is spuradic, within its twists and turns it is still governed by the law of science and God cannot interfere because then these would then not be laws. As i have said before, in the begining it is also so far evident that there were laws. As the Bible so clearly explains and so does even better Hesiods explanation. ( 900-800bc presocratic philosopher;/ envoromentalist).

I canot deny a force, but it is beyond the church interpretation. I believe in force which is chaos. I cannot give an individual nous, for this would then make him matter on the conscious level and as we all know, matter dies , so then he too would die. I cannot make him external of the reality we live in, this would be madness for we dont know the world that lies beyond death. Only ever flowing chaotic force is my conclusion. It is hard for me to explain sometimes.

This force though is not a decision maker or a judger of mans deeds. Cause if he is ever forgivable, then we dont need to be conscious of our sins because we know he will forgive us??

No, it is Logos, Nous, and virtues that seperates us from animal. We have infinite imagination which develops our techonology, and as we progress further, it is frightning to see how much we have contradicted the bible.

I believe philosophy is the only religion we need. The bible has its philosophy but it is borrowed and manipulated. So little do people see the scince that is hidden in it. Jesus heals and makes miracles ( science) and he does say that man to can do what he does. So far we have done much more.

I have shown much interest in Jesus, and i wi.l post further on him later.

For now i want to make it clear im not atheist for these ignorant people believe in absolutely nothing no force no nature. It is perhaps the most disturbing state of mind.

They take the Gods of the Greeks as delusions, and some classify the pantheists with the atheists which is false, the Pantheists see their divinities within their system as manifestations of natural forces. The atheists do not see any divinity anywhere, either in nature or outside of it.

I only seek purpose.

I argue with myself over one thing, if this god is infinite, than it is of no point or concern to figure it out, because if you know infnite, then it is no longer infinite....follow?

Elas,.....i have more books to read and more head throbs ahead.....

__________________
One must not follow what is common; but, even though the Logos is common, most people live as though they possessed their own understanding of it. The common is what is open to all, what can be seen and heard by all. To see is to let in with open eyes what is open to view, i.e. what is lit up and revealed to all.

Vinterland

I agree, but you are operating under the assumption that God is logical. It does not have to be. Being omnipotent, paradoxical and all kind of makes It/Him that way.

I will note that Genesis 1 can be synthesized properly with the concept of God setting up the Big Bang and then allowing everything to unfold. There is a particular Christian who advocates this blief, but I cannot recall his name right now.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

pseudonous

I'm not sure I understand your position. Unfortunately, I haven't read Hesiod but I can see I will have to add the Theogony to my list of books to read. Thanks for pointing it out to me it sounds like something I will enjoy reading. I am currently reading Babylonian creation stories so it will be awhile before I can get around to the Greek versions. Still, there may be enough similarities between them for me to understand a bit of what you are saying.

As far as the bible is concerned: I think it is likely that the chaos was believed by many early Jews and Christians to be coexistent with god. The idea that you can not get something from nothing is certainly very old. However, the genesis account of god's actions seems to be one of bringing order; so I don't see how you can interpret god as an "ever flowing chaotic force". I'm not sure I even understand what you mean by this. If anything, I would interpret god as an ordering force. Can you elaborate on your view further?

My personal view of the bible is one of an attempt to combine all the gods into one eternal entity (god). Specifically, they wanted to remove suggestions that a god would change over time as many of the gods do in the stories. I believe their view was that god is perfect and therefore can not improve. From this view, god would be the root of all the forces represented by the gods or perhaps simply all the forces themselves.

Also, how do you interpret Gen. 1:1? Where does it fit in with the whole of Gen. 1 to you?

__________________
"One is most dishonest to one's god: he is not allowed to sin." - Nietzsche

LOGOS

Hi mate,

im at work now so i cant carry on like prevous posts.

My judgement is a very simple one, how can this entity actualy bring order to chaos when the state of the universe is still in a chatoic state?

I simply intepreted the bible as i see it because it clearly say's that God put the universe in order which physicaly has not happened at all, for we are still in chaos and this evident because we come and go and the Erath is ever changing so to is teh universe, compressing, froming new mountains and rivers....ever flowing chaos. You cannot put thsi energy in or out of our reality, it is everywhere. The funny thing is to me, it actualy is harmony, we just dont accept and try to live oppisite of nature. When we realise this, we will become one with God or force.

Another problem with the bible is it places the ceation of man in Alpha which science and by now common sense has prevailed and proved this very wrong. The source of this claim is by Bishop Usher ( do a wiki search) this guy actualy places a day and time when god put "evrything into order".October 27th 4004 B.C

Man is mystical yes, i too conflict with the evolution of darwanism but i do agree on the development of the earth which has taken millions of years.

Why are we here?Who are we and where did we come from? The answer generaly given, was that humans where of comparitatively recent origin, because it must have been obvious , even at early times ( B.C) that humans race was improving in knowledge and technology, and no better example is there from the Greeks from which we are still using there methods to ever excell.This seemed to be lost everytime man faced crisis and il get to that in a moment.

As above Usher placed creation of the universe with a begining which is worng to me. Im Aristotelian in this area as he believed the universe had existed for ever something etrenal is more perfect than something created.
He suggested the reason we progress, was that floods, wars, or other natural disasters had repeatedly set civilisation back to the begining

The motiation for believeing in an eternal universe was the desire to avoid invoking devine intervention to create the universe and set it going.

As you will find in Hesiod there is no begining but void, although he uses the word XAOS ( greek) or Chaos ( english). Many claim that he ment void, i believe this was a twist to fit with the creation of the genesis for if theres void then surely something needed to ignite motion.


Conversely those who believed the universe had a begining used it as an arguement for the existance of the church god, as teh first cause, or prime mover of the universe. So if one believed the universe had a begining, the obvious question was, what was god doing before he craeted the universe?

Perhaps creating hell for those who asked such questions lol.....i gotta go man will continue later because im at work.....

__________________
One must not follow what is common; but, even though the Logos is common, most people live as though they possessed their own understanding of it. The common is what is open to all, what can be seen and heard by all. To see is to let in with open eyes what is open to view, i.e. what is lit up and revealed to all.