Buddha

Ever try thinking your own thoughts?

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Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission
Ignorance, hypocrisy, brutality, the elite
All of which are american dreams

Cathy Jean Mockwitz

"What I have said comes from my own thoughts."

Cathy

poincicco

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Buddha, I'm new here myself and haven't read all the replies to your initial thread quoted above. However, let me throw in my little bit here.

Over the years I have transitioned from considering suicide a big-time sin to considering it a viable act, depending on one's circumstances, especially in the case of a painful, terminal disease. This shift has gone along with my transition from evangelical Christian to agnostic and the accompanying abandonment of belief in doctrines like sin, divine judgment, hell, heaven, etc.

At various moments in my own life I have given suicide serious consideration for myself. What has kept me from doing it? A number of things, really. An innate optimism that maybe things will work out eventually (and they usually do); considering the good meals I could still have if I hung in there A genuine concern about the legacy I'd leave for my kids if I killed myself; The "mess" I'd leave for my family to try and clean up (and I'm not referring to physical mess from the suicide. There are a number of ways to do it that wouldn't litter the area with gore); The thought that, apart from the disease scenario, suicide is often the coward's or lazy man's or selfish man's way out and I don't like to consider myself any of these things,

In principle I believe we should have the legal right to determine our own destinies. However, there are definitely problems with implementing that kind of right. There ARE times we need to protect a person from him/herself, times when a person's perception of reality is askew and needs an adjustment that is best accomplished by outside therapy of some sort. Depression is often at the root of a person's desire to commit suicide. And depression is often a temporary state that can be and needs to be treated, not terminated via the ministrations of Dr. Kevorkian.

So, my opinion is, yes, suicide is a viable option that needs to be chosen ONLY when someone is in their right mind, and then only as a last resort. It can leave behind as many or more problems as it solves. I can be a dignified and sensible departure, or, depending on the circumstances, it can be a very selfish act that leaves a huge mess for many innocent people to go on living with.

"And that's all I have to say about THAT." (Forrest Gump)

debdodd

Whom gets to determine who is in "their right" mind?

Can you imagine someone being in a semi coma, aware of their surrounding but unable to communicate their wishes? Trapped in a body that no longer functions at their requests. They have to live through daily personal degradations that they mentally find reprehensible but are unable to communicate to their families their wish to stop the process?

Everyone should have a living will to make their personal beliefs, intentions or whatever they wish done in such a situation known to their family. Without such a form your family can keep you alive even if you have verbally told them otherwise.

Suicide just because times are tough is a coward's way out. As others have said it leaves those behind with incredible feelings of guilt. They are left behind to deal with your mess of a life ... just because you quit it doesn't take all your problems with you.

I don't pretend to have the answers .. just an observation. Deb

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

duck

I would agree that Choice effects not only the beginning of life, but the end of life as well.

In between? There are certainly some circumstances that would be admirable. Hitler, for one, did the world a favor at the end of WWII. Many of the Japanese high command at the same time saved the US a ton of resources prosecuting them.

I admire, though, people of conviction, so I have a great deal of conflict resolution to work through with this topic. That is what this thread has taught me.

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Religion: The ultimate definition of verisimilitude

romansh

Deb .... I think you are looking at this through one pair of eyes.
I agree with your post but....
the bit above does presuppose you know best, just a titch?
examples that come to mind
Hari Kari where honour is more important than life. Now I may not agree, but I am coward.
I understand the guilt part, but let me ask you a question .... are other people responsible for our feelings? Do other people make us angry? hmmn?

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

debdodd

I absolutely don't know the answers about many things ..... hell most things one thing I wanted to make a point of by my posting is the "living will" issue .... that was my main purpose of the post ... that's why I ask who decides ... everyone should take that responsibility away from others ... decide what you want done if something like that happens .... that was the intent of the post.

I don't think other people are responsible for our feelings ... I think they can contribute to our feelings ... compliments can make us feel better about our self but then again some can get compliments and love all day long and not buy into it and have low self esteem.

Oh definitely "other people make us angry" and we have the choice to react in anger, ignore them or laugh at them. Sometimes I succeed at turning it aside and other times I get pissed and lash out.

I am no where near as balanced as I would like to be. I am required by my job to show patience with patients all day long and the minute I get home it all goes away and I can be bitching at the mess in the house or what ever and have no diplomacy what so ever. I have a very short fuse outside of work ..... lol ask any of my siblings ...

Suicide is a solution for many. I can't say that I have never contemplated such a path for that would be a lie. Each person has to make the choice for them self but if they choose death just because of something trivial then I think that is selfish ... but then again that is only my thoughts and what I think about what other say or do is of no matter ....

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

debdodd

Oh and BTW ... I would commit suicide not to be a burden on my family but I would make sure I had all my affairs in order so they wouldn't be stuck with the mess .... I would plan it out carefully and insure that it all went acording to plan .... of course my luck would be that I would be that person trapped in a coma

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

romansh

Other people make us angry. hmmmn ... I used to believe this.
We react in certain situations with what we have been indoctrinated (programmed) with.

I can speak from personal experience from the anger point of view.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

debdodd

okay ... how about if I say .... some of us allow others to make us angry? Does that make it more palatable? Perhaps that is a better answer .. that we allow things to bother us?

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."