Buddha

I guess it's not really related. But when people state thier reasons for either argument, it just dosen't make sense to me. If that makes sense

__________________
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission
Ignorance, hypocrisy, brutality, the elite
All of which are american dreams

romansh

Hi Buddha ..... I think I know what you mean........

But .... what would the answer that makes sense look like to you?

I'm not sure I would recognize an answer that made sense to me?

all the best

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

niranjan

Sorry for the delay in replying , as I had to take a break after my last post.



And the exact same thing I am repeating is based on arguments you have not refuted yet.


Morality is there in animals and birds as well , though in a lesser degree.


So , eleminating more people, in order to reduce overpopulation, is a right thing to do, according to u!!!!!!!! And that according to u, is justice!!!





Hmmm, so hurting feelings of someone, does not count, according to u !!!!

The possibility, that the one closer to u,probably, can be traumatized by your death, and can become more negative and even commit suicide, is also a fact and merits attention.


Dude, understand the true perspective. I believe there is absolute justice. A German Nazi , may be honoured among his own people, but what he does , to propagate nazism and fascism and brutality, will not bring the greater good to the whole.

I believe justice is based on those actions which brings the greatest good and the least evil.



Which is what u seem to be doing as well.

Well, according to eastern philosophy, we believe that truth and knowledge is indeed independent and has an existence of its own.

Its our perspective.

Perhaps it is a conflict in eastern and western perspective that is conflicting between us.


Many times.

I did, pal.


Keep on with it.

Yeah, sure.

And I suggest getting your moral health checked.

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

Sa\/en

The quality of that response only indicates one thing.

Something tells me that you know you are wrong.

Someone, take over, please.

I'm done.

__________________
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious--Brendan Gill

Life is simple, people make it complicated.

viz

I would imagine that the vast majority of people who use this forum are agnostic. One of the problems of being agnostic is that your mind is 'completely free'. You begin to question everything about you, analyse people's behavior, question the meaning of life and in this case wonder why you should not kill yourself. I will add my opinion.

It is actually impossible to say what difference a life will make. Imagine the following senario, you kill yourself tonigt, your life ends. Tomorrow, had you not of died you would of been speeding down the road and killed a man. That man was going to kill a scientist in a drunken brawl who was going to invent a new technology that would allow man to travel in lightyears (or some other technology). Even go so far to put this in the past that the man who invented electricity may of died, the man who invented the internet died, whatever.

The thing is, you will never be able to tell what effect your life will have. Perhaps in your past your being before someone in a set of traffic lights has delayed their journey by five seconds, if they had of been five seconds earlier then maybe they would of been mugged.

From what I can see, logic into human thinking has allowed the creation of technologies that has made the world's population explode. With this logic also comes the fate that people will question their very life. The very evolution that was supposed to allow us to survive has caused some to kill themselves.

niranjan

Funny, I think the same about u.



Good. I am finished with u as well. U presented your perspective and I presented mine and its over. Wish to thank u for this discussion. Cheers.

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

Buddha

Is it over now?

__________________
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission
Ignorance, hypocrisy, brutality, the elite
All of which are american dreams

niranjan

Another info I would like to share in this thread is that given by an Indian enlightened master Krishna.

When a friend of Krishna's, guilt stricken by an undisciplined act in the heat of the moment, and deeply demoralised, was contemplating suicide, Krishna urged him to go to his tent, and contemplate on all his positive qualities and achievements in life, for a certain period of time.

This focus on the positive, helped Arjuna, Krishna's friend, to strengthen his morale and lift him out of his depression successfully.

Hope this will come in handy for anyone over here.

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

Sa\/en

Hell no

Sorry, I think I will take some of my time out to respond.

Yes, it depends on the person’s intent. If he values animal life over human life, he can picture it as morally justified to eliminate people. It could be the right thing to do, according to someone else. I will never find logic to refute what that guy believes. You will never find any evidence why a human is anymore important than a dog. It is not right or wrong, right and wrong don’t exist.

I believe that it is not right, according so someone else, it could be right. This just shows how justice is not solid. So yeah, again, this boils down to opinion, not fact

The person committing suicide might not care if their relative gets traumatized. It is a fact that the relative will be traumatized, yes. But the person committing suicide might not care.

It all depends if he chooses to care or not. The person might get hurt, but the guy committing suicide might not care. Nowhere do we see proof that his actions are illogical, caring is a choice, it depends if he chooses to care or not. So yeah, again, this boils down to opinion, not fact


According to you. According to the Nazi, he is right. It also depends on what you include in the whole. The “whole” is another opinionated word. My “whole” might not include cattle, therefore killing cattle is okay. To someone else, cattle can possess more value than humans. It all depends on what that “whole” includes. So yeah, again, this boils down to opinion, not fact

Oh, now you believe there is absolute justice, that’s a large jump from saying that is ultimate justice.

All your argument have been refuted, that is why I said, “You are repeating the exact same thing over and over and over again.”

Yes, morality is in existence because it plays an important role. Humans are the only ones who understand what morality is, and they then realize that it is not an absolute. Morality is fluid, as I have been showing the whole time.

Yes, the truth does exist, whether I see it or not. You fail to see that morality and truth have nothing to do with each other, truth is constant, and morality is fluid.

I’m arguing with logic, you’re arguing with belief that is not supported by logic. That is creating the conflict between us.

Present it

Present it.

You fail to see that morality and logic are separate entities, therefore trying to find why suicide is illogical is doomed to fail. The two have nothing to do with each other.

__________________
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious--Brendan Gill

Life is simple, people make it complicated.

niranjan

Wow, so , killing people in order to reduce overpopulation is right according to u.

And u consider that persons intent as just, because he feels that way!!!!


I guess serial killers may be your heroes.


And what is the basis on which to judge whether his intent is correct or not, or is closer to the truth or not.

I have based it on discrimination, that which brings the greatest good and the least evil.

For example, when there is ample vegetarian food around, slaughtering and killing animals is wrong in my opinion, except in some cases of animals or fish, that supplies certain required nutrients to the body that cannot be supplied by vegetarian food.

On the other hand, when there is no vegetarian food, and the only way to survive is through non-vegetarian food of animals or fish, then I believe that the right thing to do is to take up non-veg.

It is again pure discrimination or judgement based on the situation or circumstances by discerning the truth and putting it in action.

Intent has nothing to do with it.



Both human beings and animals lives have value, but we easterners believe that it is in the human body that the consciousness, character ,intellect and nervous system has developed to such an extent that one can attain the goal of life, which is nirvana or enlightenment, which in itself is infinite joy, as described by the Buddha and enlightened masters. This is not possible in animals. It is our perception.

Also you can say that human beings are in a position to survive better than the other extinct animals, dinosaurs and birds of the past , due to a superior intellect. And using this intellect with discrimination, he has the ability to ensure that other species will be better able to survive as well, unlike the past.

I repeat, using the intellect with discrimination.

Hence , you can say that a human life is indeed more valuable than an animal's, and hence it is just to place more value on a humans than an animal's.






And then I would deem such a lack of care as immoral and based on selfishness, as it brings the greatest evil and the least good.

I know of people who did not commit suicide, even in a state of intense depression, because they cared for their loved ones, and did not want them to beget intense pain and agony over their death. I would deem it as moral and unselfish, as it brings the greatest good and the least evil.




I would consider the whole as our living environment , human race, or world ecosystem or the world as a living organism as a whole.

What is it that brings the greatest happiness and good based on justice , to everyone or everything, should be discerned , and then put into action.

This will ensure the greatest good and the least evil.

For example the nazi soldier was following Adolf Hitlers orders, as he had been brainwashed to believe that it would bring about the greatest good (in his perspective ).

On the other hand , Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg , using his reasoning and discrimination, felt that assassinating Hitler would be the right thing to do, as it would bring about the greater good and the lesser evil to Germany.

And had he succeeded in his assassination attempt on Hitler, in all probability Germany would have capitulated immediately, instead of fighting a prolonged war to the very end, that resulted in the deaths of many thousands and much destruction . All those deaths and destruction could have hence been easily avoided , had Stauffenberg succeeded.

And we know from subsequent events , that Stauffenberg was right in his actions after all, even though it may be considered 'immoral ', from Nazi standards or military standards as it is a mutiny.


The good here represents an environment in which a human being is able to rise to his fullest potential in a positive manner, and can live a harmonious role in the world ecosystem, without being a negative influence.

You can also say that an another basis of the 'whole' is a healthy respect for life, and holding it as precious and valuable.

Also a cow is good economics, and is a quite productive animal which is useful to human beings and the environment . Hence it indeed is valuable.



And where have they been refuted. The only ones refuted is yours, as you have not answered mine, as I have answered yours.



Morality is in existence , because it plays an important role in ensuring the greatest good and the least evil, which for the animal can be survival of itself and its loved ones and its happiness.


Animals instinctively understand morality, while humans understand it rationally.

And indeed morality is fluid and differs from situation to situation. However to arrive at morality, which is the right action at the right time, you indeed have to exercise your discrimination, to realise which action is it that brings the greater good and the lesser evil.


Just as morality is fluid, I believe that truth is not static as well. It varies from situation to situation . I however do believe that there is such a thing as absolute truth, and we are indeed passing from 'lower truth' to ' higher truth' with time and advancement in culture and civilization, which makes us fitter for expressing the highest truths in action.

That is extremely funny. You keep on stating your stuff, without refuting my arguments logically, while i have refuted yours, and you now say that you are being logical and I am not.



Go back to my previous posts.

Don't think that is the truth, as logic , reason and discrimination are indeed important to discern the truth of the matter , which is different for different situations,and applying it in action results in morality or justice, which brings the greatest good and the least evil.

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine