Maximus

There's always going to be doubters, so many times in history there have been instances where close to 100% of people thought something was impossible, and they were proven wrong.

How many thought the Anaheim Migty Ducks would sweep the defending champion Red Wings in the 1st Round in the 2003 NHL Playoffs? Not even die hard Ducks fan ever pondered it.

Okay lol, I just wanted to have some fun there.

In seriousness you aren't understanding my system very well, if you were 67 and lost your job and had no savings on which to retire, you would be forced to reply for some other job, but of course you would be set on unemployment, you wouldn't just automatically be killed, where do you get that?

Only extreme cases would be terminated, I mean if I had to put a number on it I'd say maybe 0.5% of the population. Society can more than afford to lose that many people considering how many die of desease nowadays.

Now look, in my system like I've stated an individual may not have to work, but must be part of the system, a trophy wife or as someone else mentioned Paris Hilton, those individuals if cared for financially by an other or others is part of the system but not a drain.

Think about it.

An old senile individual who is PAID FOR by a relative let's say, well they're not going to be terminated.

Only when an individual becomes a drain on the public funding system, as in, utlizing public funds without any eventual gain, unlike say an athlete who would be paid for by the state until they achieved some kind of financial salary where they would be paying back the government, and no I don't mean debts I mean basic taxes.

Everyone would have to be a part of the tax system, it's really not that hard.

I mean like I keep saying not much would change, say right now 10% of the population doesn't pay taxes, doesn't have a legitimate profession etc

In my system that 10% would be cut to 0%.

It can be as simple as that when you break it all down.

bobleplask

But you have the solution? hehe.. would love to hear it, but we're far of topic by now

Sa\/en

You’re still not understanding what I am saying. I’m obviously saying that the 67 year old is incapable of working (he can’t produce more than what he is taking out) and that he is a burden on the society. If this individual is not supported by anyone, he will be killed.

It is for this single reason that your society will fail.

In many Countries, there are simply not enough jobs to go around. Some individuals that are capable of working will not be able to get jobs in your society. Why not just educate the necessary amount? Educate say, 40% of the unemployed, kill the rest as they will not be in a position to get a job, and educating them will be a drain.

Educating all the unemployed, knowing that all of them can’t get jobs is simply illogical. It’s like teaching a guy in a wheelchair how to run. Educating all those people is as illogical as throwing money down a drain. Talk about a drain on/in the system!

Being a White South African male, I see the lack of jobs all around me. When 5-10 black guys come past my house every day, asking me if they can wash my car, mow my lawn, clean my house, I look at what you are saying and I laugh. There are simply not enough jobs out there. Some of these black guys will probably turn to a life of crime, or worse. Its not that these people don’t want to work, they can’t get work.

Let’s deploy an apartheid style regime again and, wait.... this has been done before... and it failed.


Again, this is the logical thing to do, but finding people who will support it would be next to impossible. Even if the society was in place, (which is highly, highly unlikely) it would not last long.

I can give you many other examples if you’d like.

__________________
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious--Brendan Gill

Life is simple, people make it complicated.

Sa\/en

I want to live in a society where if I became that crippled, elderly citizen, I would be cared for by the government. There is a clinic about 3 km away from me that offers free healthcare to even the homeless. I’m glad that a system is in place to help those in horrible situations, because I could be in their shoes. I pay life insurance because there is a probability I could become crippled. I pay taxes and support the clinics because there is a probability that I could become that bum/cripple. I want to know that if I’m in their position, I will be cared for. I want to know that my government can care for me when I am in an unfortunate position.

The men doing low income, manual work will very likely reach a stage in their old age in which they haven’t accumulated enough money and because of their physical restrictions, they won’t be able to get a job, then they are killed. Some low income earners are working as hard as me for one tenth of the salary, I think they deserve some help from my taxes, as they are a large part of the economy, but earning very little. Just as I can retire, they too should have to ability to survive. Your salary does not indicate your value to the economy. People are exploited for next to nothing, while they are giving gold to the economy. I could talk about just this across ten pages (but I really don't want to do that )

In society, not everyone will be able to earn a high income. I’m willing to pay some money out of my large pay check to support those who are not able to earn enough money themselves. They, like I, have contributed to society.

On the topic of criminals, here in South Africa, many people turn to a life of crime because of survival, not because they are refusing to work.

Many people are exploited in their working environment when their bosses are earning 40 times more than them. I can say, “A bit of that bosses pay check belongs to his workers under him.

Now, when you want to kill this individual because his life saving have been depleted and he is unable to work, I say, “No, he has already paid taxes indirectly through his boss, because his boss has exploited him.”

Your value system is completely flawed and low income earners will be against you. If I’m only paid 10 dollars a day, when I should actually be being paid 100 dollars a day, I can argue that my money has already been paid to tax as the boss has exploited me. Income does not indicate value to society, therefore your system is flawed in another way. So yes, I again justify paying tax to those unable to work. Some people can earn low salaries while they should benefit from my tax.

Good luck in getting the base of your society to support you! Your system is bias towards the high income earners, while they’re not quite the majority are they? Your system is already lying dead in a coffin, I’m just putting the last of the nails in.

I can do this all day, but that will equivalent to showing how many ways we can eat an apple.

It’s just pointless.

__________________
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious--Brendan Gill

Life is simple, people make it complicated.

Sa\/en

Let me just give you a little scenario to explain this in baby language. Imagine there are 100 people working under one individual. This individual exploits these 100 people for his own gain. Now, when this guy receives his pay check (as a result of the workers efforts) and the 100 guys under him receive nothing, who has actually paid the government? The workers are the ones that allowed the boss to pay that money. The workers are indirectly paying the government. It is actually the workers themselves that are giving that money to the government. They are the ones doing the work. Again, workers indirectly keep the businesses alive. They’re making that money; there is just a middleman that hands it over to the government. Salary has nothing to do with economic value. What you are giving to the economy does not directly influence your salary. You indirectly pay the government through people above you. Workers feed the machine.

To make it even simpler, let me put it like this…

Imagine you’re a lawyer and you’re generating 1000 dollars a day for your efforts. Now imagine you have to pay 90% of your paycheck to some boss above you, (he himself is in a power position) and you only receive 100 of those 1000 dollars. Now you’re actually being more productive than the guy above you, yet you’re receiving 1/10 of what he is earning. Clearly, we can see the bias and lack of logic in your system. You are clearly, indirectly paying the government, even if it is not represented on your paycheck.

Another example…

Imagine I’m completely controlled by my father. Everything I earn is given to him. He then pays the government 1200 dollars in tax with the money I have generated. But my paycheck will register 0 dollars. But, factually, I have given the government that money, yet in your system, I will not receive the benefits from that money. The same applies for manual workers in a company.

Workers indirectly give money to the government, without them, the economy crashes, therefore, they should benefit from the taxes.

And guess what?

They do!

And if you’re truly concerned with productivity, retirement should be illegal. It is actually damaging the economy when we realize where it could be if those qualified individuals carried on working. Retirement does slow economic growth, considering the fact that if they did not retire, they’d still be generating money. But again, have fun getting people to accept a society in which they can’t retire!

Society does not operate like clockwork; to don’t treat is as if it does. Your salary does not indicate your value to society, fact.

Therefore, the grounds upon which your society is based are flawed.

Good night!

__________________
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious--Brendan Gill

Life is simple, people make it complicated.

Maximus

1. In many countries, I don't care, I'm in Canada, the unemployment rate is 8%. One way of creating more jobs is to expand law enforcement AND the medical field, in Canada for instance we have plenty of EUROPEAN licensed doctors who are not allowed to practise, yet we have a doctor shortage

2. I think you misunderstand the way a system like this would be impcated, in a democratic country you don't tell people what you're going to do outright. You'd obviously create a much more sound platform, and then if you were able to obtain a majority in parliament you could abolish the senate and begin to pass bills that would eventually form this system, you'd only need roughly a dozen major bills for restructuring, and most of the terminations would be part of the legalization of euthanasia.

Maximus

Now let me give you an example.

If 90% of a country's people are employed, and a farmer sells $1000 worth of a crops a week, if 100% of the nation is working, the farmer would recieve $100 more a week from his crops.

I know how the capitalist system works, I don't need any education on that subject, again, you believe my system is completely different than the one we have now, at least in Canada.

The main aspect of society that my system would change is the drain vs gain benefit, such as the retirees that cannot financially support themselves from their savings or retirement plan and have no one to support them, they instead of living in nursing homes funded by the government or private organization, are terminated.

With 100% of the nation working, crime will decrease.

Now with this " boss " thing how the government doesn't gain anything more, you look at fast food, now a lot of people waste their money on that, when places such as McDonalds pay their 24% taxes or whatever and keep teh rest of the profits, in my system such places which impact worker productivity by adding to obesity rates etc would be replaced with say marijuanna and cocaine bussinesses, to keep the people HAPPY.

Now in a capitalist society private bussiness earn more than the government, because people spend more money on private bussiness with no connection to the government other than taxes than government institutions. Government institutions are usually drained needlessly, but if you make say abortion non publicly funded, and reroute that towards cloning facilities, you therefore take away that needless drain and use it to give back to social finances.

That's a very good example.

Think about it now.

Take away abortion as a paid for public service.
Put funding into cloning facilities.
More people would have to utilize there money for abortions rather than private bussiness therefore giving more money back to the government.
Clones are used to replace retirees.
Abortion rates decrease because some people will not be able to afford them, therefore adding to replacement of retirees.


I don't understand the problem here.

Sa\/en

Easier said than done my friend, easier said than done. Again, even if this system is in place, (which is highly unlikely for obvious reasons) revolution against the system will occur. Man’s fear of death is one thing that will keep your society sitting on paper. Again, society does not operate like clockwork, don’t treat is as if it does. There are humans within society with needs that do not follow that clockwork. I will never support your system because of my human needs. I really can’t stress enough how far-fetched this society is. It will crumble; one way or another. And all this is assuming that your society can actually exist. Man won’t accept your society. Your first problem is getting that system in place (which I believe is near impossible), and even if that society is in place, holding it together is also next to impossible. You’re ignoring the nature of man, that is one of your many stumbling blocks.

Yes. But you’re missing the point.

Yes, I do believe it is different because it clearly is different. If it was not, why would you be participating in this debate?

First off, you’re ignoring the social aspect again. Secondly, your salary is not the only way you are paying the tax system, fact. The example I gave with the father and the son clearly demonstrates this. The reasoning behind your argument is quite clearly flawed.


Yeah, I think so.

This doesn’t relate to anything I have said, at all.

Cloning facilities? I really don’t need to respond to this.

Society does not operate like clockwork, don’t treat is as if it does. Salary does not indicate contribution to the economy, fact. Therefore, the grounds upon which your society is based are flawed. There are so many point that I have stated that you have completely ignored. You’re drifting farther and farther away from reality and I am now incredibly, if not totally convinced that your system is a failure.


That’s a problem.

Salary is not an indication of societal or economic value; therefore you cannot base the value of someone’s life on their salary. Until you refute this, I’m going to carry on saying it.



If you truly want a dictatorial society, why not increase tax to 100%? You can decide what to do with the money. Many wealthy individuals invest their money overseas, contributing nothing to society. If you had complete control over everyone’s finances, you could stop money from leaving the country. While you’re at it, why not make immigration for wealthy people illegal too? Stop qualified individuals from retiring if they’re fulfilling an important role. Many wealthy people have millions sitting in a bank, why not take that money and feed the economy with it? Extend working hours to 14 hours a day. Stop people from going on holiday overseas (because they’re spending valuable money in another economy.)

100% tax on everyone’s income.
Make it illegal to go overseas for holidays.
Make it illegal to retire if you can still contribute.
Make it illegal to invest overseas.
Government must have complete control over everyones finances.
Make it illegal for the educated to immigrate.
If you’re able to work for 15 hours a day, it will be illegal not to do so.
Make it illegal to introduce new political systems.
Plant chips in peoples heads; force certain people to have babies etc, etc.
Kill the genetically inferior.
Kill public holidays.
Religious needs are ignored if they conflict with productivity.
Kill those who can’t contribute anymore.
Have a society in which the government controls everything
(And I could make the list 10 pages long)

Why not treat everyone as if they are robots? If some robots can do more work than others, use them to their full potential. Treat humans as if they are purely part of an economic system. Discard the robots that are not functioning properly.

If I’m truly concerned with productivity, I’d follow these things above. But, like I’ve been saying all along, find someone who is willing to accept that they can’t immigrate, retire, invest overseas, go on holidays overseas, etc, etc. Guess what? You’ll find no one.

It’s all very easy to make systems in our minds, (I just showed how easy it is) but finding one that people will accept is the true task. Your system on the other hand fails terribly because you’re ignoring social demands.

Happiness does not equal productive. Ask yourself, do you want to be happy or productive.

The answer is too simple.

__________________
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious--Brendan Gill

Life is simple, people make it complicated.

Maximus

You're obviously putting way too much thought into this.

1. I'm sorry, but who would rebel? You said people fear death, but who in my society would have to " fear " death? The lazy bums and the human vegetables? Oh no, if they're pissed at me I'm doooooomed. Please.

2. By improving employment and initializing more government institutions the government would be getting more money BACK from the people, what you don't seem to understand is that my system would implicate more bussiness into government institutions, do you get it? Imagine all car companies slowly become run by the government, that's what I'm talking about.

3. Once again, if you control the media, you control the people, my GOD man! Would my system be dictatorship? Absolutely, but it would be a SOUND dictatorship.

Buddha

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