niranjan

There are indeed logical reasons not to kill oneself.


For one , you are committing murder on yourself ( leaving the physical illness part out of this which is involuntary ). And a murder is a murder whether it is yourself or others.

Secondly , you are bringing to waste all the tremondous power and divinity that is within you from being manifested, which could go a long way in promoting truth, justice , culture ,goodness and beauty in this world. It can also bring happiness , peace and bliss to you in the long run.

Thirdly, you are bringing great pain and suffering to your friends and family. That is sheer selfishness .

Fourthly, you are promoting yourself as a negative role model to society, and others who know you, in their weaker moments, might feel tempted to follow your example and choose the easier path of killing themselves instead of battling it out and emerging triumphant along with being positive role models for society.


You must be the change you wish to see in this world.

--- Mahatma Gandhi



I would like to invite others to give more logical reasons not to kill oneself.

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

Sa\/en

No, there is no logical reason not to kill oneself, and vice verse. Morality is not an absolute, it is a man-made concept that allows society to function. Logic and morality rarely get married. You can have opinions, yes, but pure logical reasons, no. I choose to live because there is a light out there, and I will fight for that light. In some rare cases, I would "morally" justify suicide.

__________________
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious--Brendan Gill

Life is simple, people make it complicated.

niranjan

Then refute what I have stated above !!!



Morality is the basis of things and truth is the substance of all morality.

--- Gandhi

An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self sustained.

----- Mahatma Gandhi





Well, Viveka , or discrimination or the distinguishing between right and wrong, or the temporary and the permanent, is an ideal way to find out truth or wisdom.

Justice is truth in action. --- Indian proverb

Where there is justice , there is victory. --- Indian proverb


Well said. And how do you find that light?

And what is the basis or ground work of this moral justification.

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

Sa\/en

It has already been refuted. Morality is a matter of opinion, not fact. Therefore, you have no logical reasons to show why suicide is illogical.



Morality is a man made concept, thus it has nothing to do with facts. Morality is a matter of opinion.

--- Sa\/en

My point exactly.



Opinion, not fact.

Opinion, not fact.




I tolerate the hard times in my life in an attempt to find beautiful ones later.





If I am in the amazon, hundreds of kilometers from any medical facility and a get bitten by a deadly snake, I would justify suicide from my own moral opinion. The poison will slowly break the walls of my veins and eventually I will have severe internal bleeding, then die after 5 minutes. There would be no reason to stay alive as there is no chance of recovery and I will be experiencing pain until my last moment on this earth. In this case, I would shoot myself in the head.

But in the majority of suicidal cases, that light is still shining. The ability to acquire that light is there, then I would criticize that kind of suicide because the possibility of recovery is there. Then again, that is my opinion. At least when i state an opinion, I call it an opinion. You on the other hand, disguise your opinions as facts.

__________________
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious--Brendan Gill

Life is simple, people make it complicated.

niranjan

No one has refuted my earlier points. If it is logically refuted, then I will admit it is not a fact.



My points are already there.

Here it is again...


For one , you are committing murder on yourself ( leaving the physical illness part out of this which is involuntary ). And a murder is a murder whether it is yourself or others.

Secondly , you are bringing to waste all the tremondous power and divinity that is within you from being manifested, which could go a long way in promoting truth, justice , culture ,goodness and beauty in this world. It can also bring happiness , peace and bliss to you in the long run.

Thirdly, you are bringing great pain and suffering to your friends and family. That is sheer selfishness .

Fourthly, you are promoting yourself as a negative role model to society, and others who know you, in their weaker moments, might feel tempted to follow your example and choose the easier path of killing themselves instead of battling it out and emerging triumphant along with being positive role models for society.




And is truth a manmade concept .

If newton did not discover the law of gravity, would it cease to exist.

But the point is whether you are saying the truth or the error!!!

How do you determine that.



And how is that so.

When a man has been rightly convicted ( by finding the truth) of the crime, and hence brought to justice , and in the process, an innocent person wrongly accused of the crime, has been set free , we see justice done.

Only by finding the truth of the crime, through proper investigation, was the guilty caught and the innocent freed.

So you can see from this example itself, that justice is indeed truth in action.

Injustice, can in the same way, be stated as lies or untruth in action.

Satyameva Jayate --- Truth alone triumphs.

You can see in our common life that it is only when true knowledge, both scientific or wisdom, when applied in life in action, results in success or victory.

If you take an erroneous path forward, it will result in failure.


<<<I choose to live because there is a light out there, and I will fight for that light.>>>


I suppose by the "light " you mean beautiful experiences.

And if that is true, what is it that makes these experiences 'beautiful.'



Perhaps you should put this 'light' in proper terms. It doesn't seem like 'beautiful experiences ' in this case.

Is it optimism or the will to survive!!

So if there is logically a reason to survive, you would criticize the incidence of suicide then!!!

Well, my facts are based on tested logic and discrimination.

I rely on facts, not on opinions. The way forward is safer then.



This is just a friendly discussion to find the truth, or at least attempt to do so. Nothing more than that .

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

niranjan

And how are these rules of morality determined.

So you are saying that rape is right at times!!!

How did you arrive at that logic!

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine

Sa\/en

First off, what makes murder wrong, besides a human made concept of morality? Rape, murder, suicide, nothing makes these things ultimately wrong. "Wrong" is a human perception. There is no universal law of "murder being wrong." Show me one piece of "evidence" that murder is wrong, besides saying its wrong. I can say that speaking is wrong, just because I said so. Morality is not a physical law. It has nothing to do with facts.


Physical laws are completely different from morality. There is physical evidence for the existence of gravity and humans. There is no evidence for murder being wrong. Offer me some, I beg of you.

You will not be able to answer my question because morality is not based on facts.


When it comes to morality, there is no truth, only opinion.




I can find the murderer and then later give him a thousand dollars. I can say, "Well done, well done." If i picture murder as right, I can give him his own house or whatever I want. Again, morality is a matter of opinion, not fact.


So true.

I can find the ingredients to a pipe bomb and kill 80 Jews because I think Jews are evil. I can accumulate the facts and use those facts for justice. Because Jews are just bad. (this is a joke of course, I'm just stressing the illogical nature of your repetitive arguments)


Sex feels good, because my brain is hardwired to make it feel good. I live longer to experience more of these kind of experiences.


If the probability of surviving is impossible, (the snake scenario) I will kill myself. When that ability to escape these terrible experiences is there, it depends on how much we are willing to tolerate in an attempt to acquire those experiences.



Yes, the facts are more important. That is why I highly encourage you to educate yourself in the field of philosophy and stop telling me that 4+4= 4




Then it shall remain an intellectual discussion, even if it incredibly repetitive.

__________________
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious--Brendan Gill

Life is simple, people make it complicated.

Sa\/en

I really don't need to answer that.

No, rape is neither right nor wrong, it is only thinking that makes it so.

__________________
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious--Brendan Gill

Life is simple, people make it complicated.

niranjan

Again, I ask , how is the concepts or rules of morality determined.

This is important , because only then we will arrive at a conclusion over your opinion that "suicide " is neither logical nor illogical.(which I have an issue with as well)

<<<There is no logical reason to kill yourself, just like there is no logical reason not to kill yourself.>>>

<<<No, there is no logical reason not to kill oneself, and vice verse. Morality is not an absolute, it is a man-made concept that allows society to function. >>>



A soldier, who murders an aggressor in war or in a preemptive strike , in defence of his country, or for the sake of justice, can be said to be moral.



However a person, who murders an another innocent person, in order to rob him or her of her possessions can be said to be immoral.

I believe that morality is that code of conduct that ought to be followed by a person or group formulated from his or their discrimination,based on the truth that will result in the greatest good and the least evil or harm.

And the highest and most civilized society would be that in which the greatest truths are made practical, resulting in the greatest goodness for all,and the least evil.






Well, if I murder u or your loved ones, would you think that is right.

Would my killing them be just wrong in your opinion, or is it a fact.

I believe that the substance of all morality is indeed truth, and truth is independent of all subjectivity, and is objective.


There will be multiple opinions as well,among the group.

What will be the criteria for selecting the best of these multiple opinions.



That may be just your personal opinion ,based on your thought process,which can be erroneous,and which might conflict with right thinking and the truth.



You had an objective to kill the jews and you applied your scientific knowledge to put it into action. If your scientific knowledge was erroneous, you would not have achieved your objective.

So you can see that application of knowledge or truth(scientific laws) is important for success of your objective.

But then comes the issue of moral laws, and when you kill 80 innocent jews, that indeed is a huge waste of life, causes tremondous harm , and hence is immoral.

As I said before, "Justice is truth in action."

And there is an another Indian proverb ...

Ahimso Paramo Dharmah ---- Nonviolence is the greatest justice (or righteous act.)


While your application of scientific knowledge or scientific laws to achieve your objective may be sound, your lack of application of wisdom or moral laws in your action, is unsound, and results in failure for yourself and society.



So the reason to prolong life,in your opinion , is to experience sensual pleasures,and it has no meaning other than that.

Does this also include intellectual and spiritual pleasures!!!




Which logically can be done after exploring all the alternatives and paths for a way out and enduring to the very end.



I believe logically , that the attainment of the ability to escape all "these terrible experiences" and the willingness to tolerate in order to survive, is the duty of a person, and he should strive and exert fully to do so.



I indeed know that 4+4=8 ,and I have also studied philosophy,both western and eastern.

However I must say that you have a point of view, which conflicts with my point of view, and I want to debate with you , (in the spirit of vaada),whose is the truth , or comes closer to the truth, which is what this forum is all about.

The idea is to come to the truth,and nothing else.

I think it is repetitive,because you are not willing to explore the basis of your thought process,and shirking logic and reason from it,and hence I have to keep on coming at it.

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine