Fate; does it exist;fully,in part,or not at all

GrandmasterTheGameOfLife · 09-30-2007, 05:39 PM

The universe as we know it operates on a set of strict laws of physics; Do these also control our own actions;from the atomic level,and in turn what we see?

Is it just partial,for example if you were born in the USA you have much more opportunity than if you were born in Congo.

Or is it none at all; life is all what we make it.

Your thoughts on fate and free will?

digitalMedia · 10-01-2007, 08:59 AM

I believe in free will. I can't accept the idea that my life has been scripted, previously, or is being manipulated, currently.

Happenstance, coincidence and eventualities - that's what I see.

Searcher · 10-01-2007, 09:28 AM

I am happy to accept as a concept that fate is definite, that our actions may be based on purely scientific theories, and therefore predictable at least to some extent, possibly in theory completely if we could accurately measure all the information in a brain instantly. Of course to then determine fate the system (i.e. the Earth, solar system and possibly even the Universe as a whole) is so massive it is almost beyond comprehension. The system is just too chaotic.

However, if that's the case then we have a very convincing illusion of free will, at least to a large extent although obviously many things are beyond our control, even beyond anyones control, for the present anyway.

I don't see much point in thinking too much about whether we really do, or whether we just think we do, and it appears that way. Even if it is proveable, which based on what I do know of science in particular quantum theory I doubt it really is, I still don't think it matters all that much to me beyond a casual philosophical and scientific interest.

What matters to me, is that I feel like I am responsible for my actions, therefore I assume that responsibility. If I err, then I have the choice to try to put things right. Whether fate dictated it to me through science, or I have some deeper soul which cannot be explained by science, I don't really think it makes much difference to me as its own seperate issue.

Not that it isn't interesting of course, and it does also affect other debates. But as its own issue I'm not sure the actual truth of it means all that much to me. Let science progress, we never know where that might lead.

**George** · 10-01-2007, 09:33 AM

"Who know what the future holds?"

Why... the future of course

romansh · 10-03-2007, 08:48 PM

I would argue the definite and strict laws!
Newtonian laws seem fairly rigorous and predictable but chaotic systems can easily occur from them. Just tiny changes in the initial conditions can give widely differing results. Then throw in quantum fluctuations.... sorry not predictable. Except by a supreme sentient being? Just joking.

On top of that, quantum physics is still a maturing science and everything is not defined. As though physics was not complicated enough, some physicists are begining believe these strict laws change with time.

So whateer the universe is it is not clockwork

all the best

romansh · 10-03-2007, 09:01 PM

I agree with you in that we have free will
but there are some interesting examples of that could require some discussion

try stopping your heart beat
how long can you hold your breath or not blink

and for me there is the (sad) case where a man started molesting his daughter, there was no previous history of him doing so. It turned out he had a growth in his brain. The tumour was removed his urges stopped. Eventually the urge to molest returned together with the tumour.

The first couple of examples are trivial, but we must (I think) accept we are chemical machines to some degree. In the last few months there have been interesting articles on free will in the new scientist

all the best

Searcher · 10-04-2007, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by romansh

I would argue the definite and strict laws!
Newtonian laws seem fairly rigorous and predictable but chaotic systems can easily occur from them. Just tiny changes in the initial conditions can give widely differing results. Then throw in quantum fluctuations.... sorry not predictable. Except by a supreme sentient being? Just joking.

On top of that, quantum physics is still a maturing science and everything is not defined. As though physics was not complicated enough, some physicists are begining believe these strict laws change with time.

So whateer the universe is it is not clockwork

all the best

With our current understanding, I totally agree.

However I read some very interesting theories in 'Parallel worlds' by Michio Kaku which are very interesting.

100 years ago, the technology and understanding we have now would have seemed way beyond the average educated person. In another 200, 500, or thousand years, we just have no way of knowing. Hence why I can accept a theory that it might eventually be possible. Although naturally it seems extremely unlikely. As I said earlier, the system is just too chaotic for any such thing to seem reasonable to us at this time.

Quote:

and for me there is the (sad) case where a man started molesting his daughter, there was no previous history of him doing so. It turned out he had a growth in his brain. The tumour was removed his urges stopped. Eventually the urge to molest returned together with the tumour.

The first couple of examples are trivial, but we must (I think) accept we are chemical machines to some degree.

This is one example of the sort of thing that leads me to think we are quite possibly just chemical machines. Physical, scientifically explainable changes inside our bodies beyond our control can lead to changes in behaviour ranging from subtle to extreme and anything in between.

danarch · 10-04-2007, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Searcher

However I read some very interesting theories in 'Parallel worlds' by Michio Kaku which are very interesting.

I loved that book he put out a few years ago "hyperspace". brain food mmmm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Searcher

Let science progress, we never know where that might lead.

amen brother

**The An-Jel** · 10-05-2007, 03:27 AM

You act and react with a billion other people involved doing the same thing around you. It's a script!

The small inkling I find as a serenity that attempts to fade through is the ultimate extremes of logic and emotion... both seem to override instincts. You can call these conditions fate but they are absurd beyond comprehension for me.

Searcher · 10-05-2007, 12:07 PM

Quote:

The small inkling I find as a serenity that attempts to fade through is the ultimate extremes of logic and emotion... both seem to override instincts. You can call these conditions fate but they are absurd beyond comprehension for me.

I tend to think of emotions as being completely instinctive. Of course, the instincts of human beings are more complex than what we witness in other forms of life.

Not quite so sure about logic, I think that depends on the application. It is apparently human instinct to want to better ourselves in some way, logic and reason are means to that end. But I think we are still trying to satisfy instinctive urges, although very complex ones.