romansh

Have you changed thinking on this?...just that last time I remember you discussing this, you seemed more on the having-free-will-side?.....

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

to_hobbes

As far as I can recall, I haven't changed my mind. I think I said something like, "Free will exists as long as it's defined as simply 'the human decision making process' ". In that case, there is free will.

But I don't like saying "free will" because most believers in God say that free will is God's gift to you so you can freely choose to believe in him or go to hell. And those believers in God can tell themselves that they are so much wiser for making the obvious choice -- so much more intelligent they are, as compared to those stupid agnostics who think so much about everything that they miss obvious fact that god exists...

Yeah, I'm rambling. So, yes there is free will, but it depends on how you define it. But I would rather not call it free will because our mind is a lot more mechanical than we like to think.

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(By the way, it's all in your head.)

romansh

Thanks ... so how "mechanical" is it?

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

xxkayxx

If our minds were so mechanical, then wouldnt people be more or less the same? What i mean is that everyone has their own personality, defined by millions of different traits that make them unique, so i find it hard to believe that our minds are so mechanical, but perhaps you could explain a little bit more?

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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing

romansh

Are we not more or less the same?
In terms of primary and possibly secondary needs?

If you look at Og's (and others') explanations of how brains work it is amazing that we are similar at all?

Plus our 'programming' is different .... my experiences are different to yours, Og's etc

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

to_hobbes

Technically, our mind is also 100% mechanical. But our own mind is so complex that we should not consider our mind as a mechanical process. That is, from a human point of view (from within our own mind) we have free will, but from a universal point of view (viewing humans as creatures) we have no free will, we are just chemical machines.

This is because we can identify our own decision making process as it occurs, and when we think about it consciously, we can call it "free will".

Being conscious of our own decision making process makes us think we have free will, and this consciousness is an important factor in our mechanical decision making process.

__________________
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(By the way, it's all in your head.)

to_hobbes

We are all basically the same, with a few minor differences. These minor differences are of course caused by our environment and the slight differences in our physical construction.

But its all relative, we are so similar to each other that we usually don't even think about the similarities because they are so obvious. We take our similarities for granted and tend to focus on the differences.

Of course there's nothing wrong focusing on the differences. We all do it.

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(By the way, it's all in your head.)

romansh

Hi Hobbes
Technically, our mind is also 100% mechanical. agree But our own mind is so complex that we should not consider our mind as a mechanical process. why? That is, from a human point of view (from within our own mind) we have free will, but from a universal point of view (viewing humans as creatures) we have no free will, we are just chemical machines. So I think I have free will but I don't.....I'm OK with that.

This is because we can identify our own decision making process as it occurs, and when we think about it consciously, we can call it "free will". How much a part of our decision process is our unconscious? I have a choice of whether I listen to my running commentary on life? What do you mean you don't have that voice?....
Being conscious of our own decision making process makes us think we have free will, and this consciousness is an important factor in our mechanical decision making process. So you are conscious of how neural pathways have formed in your brain and they affect your decisions on a day to day basis? .... hmmmn ...

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Og

No, because each of our experiences and paths are different. Look at any two computers at some suburban houses. They may both run windows and may both be intel pentium processors, but they may have drastically different software and certainly have drastically different files/photos/etc on them. Each of the computers behave quite differently due to the path that they have taken since they were fabricated.

The brain is 100 billion neurons with 10000 connections on each neuron. That approximately as many neurons in your brain as there are trees in the amazon rain forest and as many connections between them as there are leaves on trees.

Can you wrap your mind around that? Every component of your brain is a biochemical machine. When you put billions of elements together with millions of sensory inputs about the world, you get a unique machine (even though it may be laid out differently).

Every individual has a unique path in the world. Just like every hurricane has a unique path with a unique history and no two hurricanes are the same. Even though they are formed by uneven heating of the earth's surface etc.

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Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Skepticologist

Some very good points, Hobbes. But I tend to take it to a much more elemental level. If there's one comprehensive synopsis of the meaning of life, I don't think you'll find it within the pages of any religious texts. Instead, I think you'll find it in the clearly areligious discoveries of Charles Darwin. It's all about preservation and perpetuation of the human species. When a member of the species does something to harm another member of the species, it can be considered bad or evil. When a member of the species does something to support and strengthen another member, it can be considered good and right. The bottom line, in my estimation, is that we're all in this together, and we're automatically held accountable for our actions because their effect on others has an automatic effect on ourselves.

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"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

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