Telimaktar

Cool I'm still stuck there

Very true, there is a lot that we have no control over (instinct included). And subliminal messaging is very real and made use of. And that then also ties in and makes my argument null and void to an extent with regards to doing the unexpected and undocumented in an attempt to prove free will.

I wonder how free will can be proven, if it can ever be proven?

May you find water and shade.

Skepticologist

I'm not sure what you're referring to as "the bold bit", but if it makes logical sense to me it could well fall within my personal realm of "belief".

With regard to your other questions, I have no idea how much of my individuality comes from my subconscious for the obvious reason that I'm not conscious of it.

Similarly, I have no idea as to the impact of subliminal programming from my environment on my beliefs because it's subliminal, i.e. not part of my conscious thought.

So what's your point?

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"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

romansh

The bit written in bold

My point is I suppose .... we think our individuality choices etc are things we control....I can't help thinking that every choice we make is a result of our subliminal programming and our unconscious thought. They certainly have a great impact

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

marmalade

Skepticologist

OK. I can see your point and I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject to refute it. But let me ask you a question. If the choices we make are attributable only to "our subliminal programming and our unconscious thought", and are therefore beyond our control, how does that knowledge play out when you find youself with a choice to make? Do you not still identify your options and weigh the potential consequences of your choice to the best of your ability?

__________________
"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

romansh

Don't worry... a lack of knowledge did not stop me proposing it.
I think the conscious parts of us do weigh and consider the data, options and possible outcomes. Again I ask how much our conscious thought is guided by our unconscious? I don't know. Either way our conscious is just as much a part of our programming as is our unconscious, it's just that you and I can debate it rationally.

I'm not sure I understand or even believe all this, but I have to admit it is logical.... at least for me. Like I said previously, four months ago when I joined this forum I was convinced I had free will. All I can be certain of now is just that it feels that way

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

xxkayxx

i totally agree with that

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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing

romansh

I agree with with the Happenstance, coincidence and eventualities bit for I could argue there is evidence for that. .... though not exacty sure what digitalMedia meant by 'eventualities'.

I'm having trouble finding evidence for free will though, other than my intuition. As soon as I start thinking about it in any depth ..... I can't see evidence for free will. What is yours?

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

xxkayxx

Well, when i said i believed in free will, i meant in the sense that we're all accountable for our own actions. Whatelse that might mean, i dont know As for eventualities, i believe that if you do a "bad" thing, its more than likely, youl eventually be punished, do a "good" thing, and youll more than likely be rewarded It's just cause and effect really

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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing

to_hobbes

Accountable for our actions, yes. But isn't free will just a feel-good way of saying "ability to make decisions"?

What I mean is, our ability to make decisions is the process in our mind that takes input from our five senses, computes the meaning of that data, then acts according to those calculations to make us do things that keep us alive. So I think free will is actually not quite so free.

Its just that everyone is expected to do their best at making the right decisions in order to benefit society, because benefiting society helps to ensure survival for yourself and others. Many of the decisions that benefit society are decisions that you make under the assumption that you are accountable for your own actions.

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(By the way, it's all in your head.)