Skepticologist

I've argued for years with christian family members and friends that free will doesn't exist in biblical teachings because the christian god created adam and eve with the propensity to defy and disobey him and, as if that weren't enough, unleashed satan in the form of a serpent to make sure that they did.

Having considered such intellectual drivel from a logical perspective since rejecting it and its associated dogma, I've concluded that it's nothing more than a fairy tale that, albeit, for whatever combination of reasons, has been accepted by a considerable percentage of humans; not quite as large a percentage as those who call their god allah vs. jehovah and their prophet mohammad vs. jesus, but close enough to be considered legitimate.

But outside the realm of religious fantasy, I firmly believe in free will. I firmly believe that the decisions we make from time to time have an impact on us and those within our sphere of influence. Granted, as has been observed previously in this post, nothing we do as individuals will register as even a minor blip on the radar screen of the universe as a whole, but that doesn't negate the importance of our actions and their consequences.

Otherwise, life is reduced to nothing more than the mindless chemical and mechanical processes previously described. I'll admit to the possibility that I may be subject to the same fallacy as the religiously inclined whom I openly criticize, i.e. wishing that their world view makes some sense in the grand scheme of things, but unless living has the potential of making a difference, it seems to me that it's essentially meaningless.

What this question boils down to, for me, is consciousness. Without it, I could exist, like some amoeba or paramecium swimming around in its small fluid world driven by nothing more than chemical or mechanical processes. But I know that's not how I operate. I consider a range of alternatives and their potential impact, not only on me but others I care about, before I speak or act. And in, admittedly, a very limited way, the choice I make among the numerous alternatives available to me makes a difference.

__________________
"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

marmalade

Maybe. I'm just not sure how linear anything can work in such a complex world as this one... unless you're talking about infinite lines of causation that criss-cross eachother so completely they can't be disentangled.

I think its convenient to characterize situations as linear because that is the easiest way we can think about things. But I also think we're meaning different things by the term 'linear'.

If you have many inputs, then how is that linear? Wouldn't linear imply a single cause or at least a central cause?

I liked your phrase "point of perturbation is reached." That happened to me once and I was not very happy about it.

to_hobbes

I agree completely.

Like I said in one of my previous posts, when I say there is a such thing as free will, I have to re-define what it is to mean "humans have the ability to make decisions." It has nothing to do with free will in the same capacity as abrahamic theology. Christianity depends on free will existing because otherwise, they wouldn't be able to assert that non-christians are going to hell. They need it to convince themselves that non-christians have been given a choice and choose the wrong path.

But if there were no free will and you think we are just mechanical cells in the organism of society reacting according to our environment according to our brain-program, then you may as well be a nihilist. Anything you do is unimportant. And this simply isn't true.

So if you decide to ignore your own ability to make decisions, it's self-defeating. This is why I think it is important to act like free will exists, even if from a universal "god" perspective, it really doesn't exist.

to_hobbes

Exactly. Like I was saying because the future state of the universe can be calculated (just not by humans), everything that transpires is fated to happen and free will doesn't exist.

And because we don't have enough information, we should act as though we do have free will. In other words, re-define free-will to mean simply "the human decision making process". We have the ability to make decisions. Even if our own mind is set on an unalterable path through the universe, that path can't be understood because it is impossible for us to calculate. Therefore, we need to make decisions -- calculate what to do based on the limited information we have.

So I intend on "pretending" free will does exist, as you put it. As Skeptologist pointed out, its actually rather important to believe that it does exist. Otherwise, how would you make decisions in your life at all?

AB517

I agree with this skept.

The only question I have for you is the intense dislike towards religion you seem to show. I agree with how you see it, but why so intense? You seem understand the limits of religions and how men use them. It’s the intensity of it that confuses me. Your very logical and have excellent thoughts. I am Roman Catholic and we need more people like you. Its hard for us to hold the line with so few of us in our religion.

Listen, most of this stuff is good.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your use of the words, specifically “mechanical” or “machine”.

Balance people … use balance.

It does exist in the context of the physical laws of the universe. You do not have control over everything, but to say that you can not chose is utter nonce. You can, and it has been show, change the way you perceive things. These changes must be confined to the physical limitations of the brain. A machine can not change how it behaves. A lion will always be a loin. A person does not always have to act like an animal.

The calculator need here doesn’t have to be that big. We can start by just looking at the conditions on Earth. We can go even smaller by looking at a number of sample sets. If I need to explain why, you should not be talking about free will as an illusion.

Secondly let’s look at the brain. For the most part you are correct. Where your misunderstanding lies is the difference between a Mechanical Robot and a biological Robot. In a mechanical robot random fluctuations, to a degree, do not occur. We can look at a two identical finely tuned race car as an example for this. Will a computer with the computation power of a human brain become aware of it surroundings, I do not know. The “hard wiring” of it leads me to NO, at best it will be an animal like think, with big ass fins to get rid of the heat. Think I heard the number of 10^16 calculations per second, but I don’t know.

The chemical nature of the brain is not “locked” into one pathway as a computer is. Although many comparison can be drawn between two, the physical make up of the two is different. This has been shown in many studies that an individual can change how they perceive the world. I have dealt with many people in my career and have seen it happen. They are however locked into the physical nature of their brain.

Now to the human side:

My father once said to me, “Do not judge the type of man I am by what I did to another human being as a combat soldier.” He was a 20 year old paratrooper in WW2 on June the 6th. He had little choice there. He chose to be a better man to try and make up for what he did. He did not have too. I speed a lot, which I am not proud of, but sometimes, even when I am late I chose not to. It is very hard for me to fight it, but I force myself. If I did not have free will I would just do what ever my brain thinks. Whatever my brain thought would be. I logically, in the confines of the nature of my brain, chose other alternatives. This is where I like use Mr. Buddha’s rituals to help me focus. I chose to try and be more than I am.

To me, some people use a god to help explain their lives and others use the notion of being locked in like logos. Either way it used as a comfy pillow to easy their troubled heads. The truth is probably (there is that word again) in between. We are evolving as a life form. Maybe we are moving from no free will to more free will. A tree will always be a tree, it can choose nothing else.

Ah forget it, I hate typing long stuff.
You have not logically discounted free will totally yet. You guys did however, offer some excellent insight.

Thank you.

AB517

Perfect sense.

to_hobbes

No, the brain is a chemical machine that can't alter it's behavior any more than a computer can.

Look at the brain at the smallest possible level. Just a bunch of cells connected together sending electrical pulses depending on their chemical content. The cell's behavior is determined by it's design. The cells are formed according to a predictable process which varies predictably according to the conditions in the environment. The only difference is, the brain is generated from a process that isn't quite as precise as a man-made mechanical process. Because there are trillions of cells, the brain is difficult to predict precisely, we can only predict the behavior of the brain at a macro-scale. But if we knew the state of the brain at a micro-scale, that is if we knew the state of every brain cell and synapse in your mind, and we could also continuously observe every change made to your brain caused by outside stimuli, we could predict exactly what you will think from now until your brain stopped. Of course this is only possible in theory, and certainly not in practice.

The brain is locked into a single calculation pathway just like a computer is. Its just, the brain's process is trillions of orders of magnitude more complex than a computer.

AB517

Oh, maybe I do not remember my bio so good.
I have some studying to do, thank you.

I thought, no pun intended, that some neuron transmitions were done through chemicals passed between cells and that we could reinforce a neural pathway by thought or action repetition?

wow. this changes everthing.
Then we have no control over our actions and there is not right and wrong.
Empty the prisons and stop the teaching.
I think I am going to do what I want from now on.
And here I Stopped motocross because I thought it was for my kids.
screw that, I am going to ride till I die.

romansh

Hi AB

No you don't have any choice.
You'll continue doing what your programming dictates.


We'll continue to fill the prisons
protect our children
do what we think we "want" to do
take up motocross again

but you correcty interpreted, the wrong and right though

I admit I not totally convinced ...... but it explains alot

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

to_hobbes

I'm no biologist. But I'm pretty sure you're right, chemicals passed between cells re-inforce a neural pathway which becomes a memory. As I recall, the electrical pulses passed between cells in the brain cause our muscles to move, so I guess the electricity acts as a "memory-read operation" like in a computer chip (I should really check wikipedia before I write this, but I am in a hurry).

Seriously, the fact that we are complex machines doesn't change anything. Don't stop learning, there is a difference between right and wrong.

There is fate and we have no control over our current state of mind or our environment. But this is only true from a universal, God-like point of view. However, from a human point a view (the view that is most relavent to us), we do have a thought process, we must make decisions, and therefore ethics and education is very important. That's what I have been saying all along. (Please read this post).

I am arguing that humans do have free will, but only on the condition that you define "free will" to mean "the human decision-making process" (please read this post). In other words, the "free" part is a misnomer, it should be called "variable will." Our decisions are made mechanically like a very complex chemical computer, but that doesn't mean we are not able to make decisions! Computers can make decisions too, it is part of their design, as it is part of our design.

I agree with this, but I just want clarify definitions by saying humans are machines that make decisions, and our decision making process is called "free will", but "variable will" would be a better name for it.

The reason I go to lengths to clarify this is because I have been in one too many arguments with Christians who insist that people like me are going to hell because I have the choice to accept Christ and still do not. This simply isn't true because from God's point of view, we are simply following our program. But from our less-than-God, human point of view, it is very important to make intelligent decisions based on what we know. We have a duty to think freely, our morals depend on it.