The An-Jel

through our own making?

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

PhoenixReborn13

Recommended reading on this topic: Arthur Schopenhauer, "Prize Essay on the Freedom of the Will"

Schopenhauer shows that there is no real absolute 'freedom', as a good many people believe there to be. He then goes on to argue that we can be causally determined AND have enough 'freedom' in some sense to be responsible for our actions.

Most uneducated people will reject any concept of determinism, confusing it with fatalism, or the concept that everything is entirely determined with no control whatsoever. Concepts of fatalism are a weak minority in philosophy today, if present at all.

Requiem

This does indeed make a case of being "chemical machines". Who knows, in 100 years or less, there could be chemicals on the market to make any human being act in a variety of ways. That of course branches into a whole new morals topic, but this is about Fate. I myself don't believe in fate, because in order for there to be fate, there would have to be something/someone to destine the fate, which is debatable according to your beliefs of course.

Maximus

There's a lot of little things that when you think about it kinda freaks you out how they all come together.

As a sports fanatic I see this constantly.

I mean take Tom Brady for example, an no I'm not a Pats fan, but think about this, 6th Round pick, number 199.

He had to work his way to third string QB in spring and then injuries to the top 2 guys brought him in and look what's happened, he's also never been injured since.

Then you take Warner, my favourite QB and his life and what happened to him.

These things can be looked at as coincidences but I don't know.

In my life I have these little things that come back, I mean I remember watching some screwed up movie when I was 10, then when I was 20 I was sifting through a book in film studies and came across a picture that I starred at for a second, then read the description, and it reminded me of that movie, I turned to the guy beside me and I started to say how ****ed up it was and how I thought I would never come across it again, and we started talking, he had seen the movie and yatta yatta, we're now best friends.

Those little things freak me out.

There was also another recent events that came together rather odd, I was driving to a party with a friend and decided to stop over at a subway, I walked in and saw one of my friends from waaaaay back working, I swear it was him, and it was, so I talked for like 5 minutes and we ended up getting together a few times since then and if I hadn't of been driving at that time, to where the party was ( which is near 2 hours from where I live ) and stopped at THAT subway at THAT time.

It's just weird.

Skepticologist

Not when you think about it a little. After all, how many days do you go about your business and not come across someone from your past? People, the world, and the universe for that matter, are in constant motion. It seems to me that what would be truly wierd is never crossing paths with someone from your past.

Are you familiar with the principle of six degrees of separation? Basically, it asserts that if you're waiting for a flight in an airport departure lounge and strike up a long-enough conversation with the person sitting next to you, you'll eventually discover a mutual acquaintance within a chain of no more than six acquaintances. Is that fate? I don't think so. If I were a mathemetician, I'm pretty sure I could express the probabilities in an equation.

I constantly hear people claim that everything happens for a reason, but I don't believe it. In my opinion, things happen in line with the mathematical probabilites that they will or will not happen.

If you wanted to interpret that random meeting in a Subway shop as part of some kind of divine plan that you reconnect with someone from your past, that's up to you. I certainly don't think it would hurt to have a chat about the paths your lives have followed because it might be interesting. But it has nothing to do with fate.

__________________
"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

Maximus

Oh man, that's just the slap across the face I needed.

Thanks.

I don't know, all this divinity crap gets to me sometimes, you have no idea the kind of people around me...well maybe you do, God damn, thanks man.

AB517

Think of freedom as if you were driving car. If we follow a set of rules (give up some personal rights) we ALL can go where we want.

I do not remember what they called it but the Vikings had something akin to “he has the good luck”. I believe that to a lesser degree but it is there. I think of it as charisma. If you look different or don’t speak well then it mite seem to you as “fate dealt you a blow.”

Free will and fate work hand in hand. If you chose to the “next right thing” you will probably live a nice life. Weather in the Congo or in the USA.

This is just a general look. Bell curved if you will.

Drizzling Blur

Fate is what we make

Cross the road, take the dog to the walk, decide to buy the new record from the store or kiss good bye the last girl you saw. Whatever happens happens because you want it to happen and probably you are making it happen and for people who think that why does whatever they think never happens i have a solution, stop thinking the not-so-possible and reach out to what's at arm's length, maybe once you do, you could reach out to larger distances than before. The concept of Fate sometimes can get irritating, being in India, i hear this a lot and people are not ready to think of anything but fate since they think this is the land of Snakes and Saints and BLAH BLAH, Whatever i have had enough of this word and i dislike it.

AB517

Nothing to do with fate at all?
That is as narrow and closed minded as any religion.

marmalade

There are many things that determine our behavior. There are the various physical factors that science studies. And science has also studied various psychological/neurological factors. Science bases theories on the patterns it discovers. I could also throw out archetypal factors which are important even if they only determine our behavior at a psychological level.

Science can't study freewill because its a nebulous concept that can't be translated into observable factors. Freewill is more of an attitude or a belief. At best, we can hypothesize that a severely limited freewill exists, but hypothesis it will remain. Even if you prove that people who believe in freewill are more successful at what they attempt, you still haven't proven freewill. All you have proven is a correlation between factors that may have no linear causal relationship.

It makes for an interesting subject to contemplate and discuss, but there is no answer that we can ascertain. The fact of the matter is that freewill and the illusion of freewill would appear the same to the person experiencing them(or the scientist observing them).

Personally, I have severe doubts about freewill existing. Or, if existing, then extremely limited. Its been my observation that people are simply what they are. And once you know someone well enough, most people are highly predictable. Even the seemingly unpredictable behaviors often have explanations when you look closely enough.

My guess is that freewill is mostly or entirely an illusion that is created and upheld through our cognitive limitations. If we don't know what causes us to do something, then it can be easy to take personal credit for causing it. Even when something bad happens, many people would prefer to accept blame rather than accept the unknown.

Anyways, it seems that humans need to believe in freewill to some minimal degree to function normally... or that normally functioning humans tend to believe in freewill. Even if freewill is an illusion, its an illusion that is unlikely to go away very easily.

I don't believe in freewill, but I do act as if freewill exists. It seems nearly all humans are programmed likewise.