Og

What other tools to we have for making any statements about anything?

There is NOTHING infinite that exists. Even if everything were deterministically connected like a big pool table full of billiard balls all bouncing off one another, it would not be infinite determinism. There would be a fixed number of states available to the system and a fixed number of interactions because the universe is NOT infinite.


Yes it does address it. That was the whole point of the example. You claim there's a causal relationship between everything? What is the causation of the emission of a photon or other particle from the radioactive decay of a material? Answer that one and you'll blow modern physics out of the water!

I don't track your logic. It seems to be veering off in some direction that doesn't involve reality

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Nick Treklis

Logic.

Existence itself is necessarily infinite because there is nothing beyond it.

I already told you. The fact that I am not that photon being emitted is a cause to it's existence. Everything is caused by what that which it is not.

romansh

You'll start believing you're Danger Man, No6

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

xris

Im glad someone remembers.

Og

Huh? Logic works only when applied to AXIOMS or EVIDENCE. That's not what I was talking about. You don't just "logic up" some understanding of the universe. You've gotta observe.

Huh? That's not the definition of infinite, friend. Infinite means boundless/unending. The universe is not this. There is finite matter, finite time (back to big bang), finite space, finite maximum speed (light). Furthermore, space seems to be quantized on the plank length meaning that there are a finite number of states available to the universe.

The universe is not technically infinite. If you want to talk about the variety of experience and possibilities relative to our comprehension in some poetic fashion, then fine. But infinite is just a concept. There is nothing that is infinite.

I was not talking about the existence of the photon. What is the cause of the emission of the photon? This thread is about fate. Energy and matter seem to be conserved in the universe. The transitions they go through in time are what we are talking about. We're asking if fate exists where fate is the transition of energy and matter from one state into another (like you putting one foot in front of another).

The emission of the photon from the radioactive decay of a material is purely random. It is described by a probability distribution that has existence over a broad timescale. This is why these materials have half lives instead of "exact" lives.

There is nothing determined about the universe. This is empirically demonstrable and can be illustrated with quantum mechanics.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Nick Treklis

What did you observe that lead you to this conclusion?

Logic works when applied to something, yes. But that doesn't mean it isn't there, it just goes unused by us when we don't. Besides, logic is constantly working because Existence operates on logical principals such as A=A, and I didn't need empirical observation to reach this conclusion. We either understand this or we don't.

I'm not talking about the observable Universe. I'm talking about the infinite and all encompassing Existence in which everything, including the observable universe, resides.

I agree that the observable universe in the way you describe it is not infinite, but that is not to be confused with Existence itself. And like you said, all these sights, sounds, and experiences of are completely relative which is why I'm actually not even discussing them. I'll also agree that no finite entity is infinite but Existence is not finite.

The object emitting the photon is a cause to it, the observer is a cause to it, an environment conducive to produce that photon is a cause to it. And to make a long story short, EVERYTHING that is not that particular photon is a cause of the photon being emitted. If you disagree with this fact then you are saying that the photon is you, me, the Earth, and any other finite entity you can imagine simultaneously. Which is a blatant violation of A=A and completely non-sensical, illogical, and all the rest.

And half lives can be predicted and estimated meaning there is definitely some causal flow going on there and not some willy-nilly kind of reaction. If it were then science obviously would not have any use for such things.

Just because we can't determine something with absolute certainty through empirical observation doesn't mean it isn't determined. Everything is necessarily determined based on what I've said in this thread so far. Also, based on what I've said so far in this thread, all future events are impossible to determine through empirical observation with absolute certainty. I.E. Everything is Ultimately determined, but indeterminable by us.

Og

Again you fall into hidden variable theorems. Everything is Ultimately determined, but indeterminable by us."... You use words like obviously, and of course. There is absolutely no evidence for these kind of comments. Bell's theorem refutes the notion of hidden causes. You are going the route of Einstein's response to quantum. It is a mistake.

This is not the way the universe works. Certainly the wave function describing the state of an electron is shaped by its environment, but it has existence everywhere in the universe at once and there is a finite probability that an electron in your hand could jump to the opposite side of the sun.

These kind of barrier jumps can and do occur. This is the principle behind the scanning tunneling electron microscope amongst other things. The object emitting the photon is NOT the cause to it. If this were the case, then all components of a radioactive sample would emit their radiation at the same time. Instead, they are statistically spread over an indeterminant period of time (this spread - distribution function - is based on the material).

The universe is not a causal chain of events. It just appears that way to our macroscopic selves.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Nick Treklis

Lets start over...

I'm saying that everything is ultimately determined because everything is caused by what it is not. Since there was never a point in existence where there was nothing the causal flow of nature is never broken.

Secondly, this conclusion also means that all future events can never be determined by us with absolute certainty because the causes are necessarily infinite based on my first statement. This is because no mind, computer, or machine will ever be powerful enough to crunch an infinite amount of data because their abilities are necessarily finite. The only entity capable of "knowing" with absolute certainty what the future holds is Existence itself, but using the word "knowing" is actually a little misleading because Existence is not conscious and only consciousness can know anything.

Og

First off, you're just plain using the word infinite wrong.

Second off, you're making the assumption that the universe is what Stephen Wolfram calls "computationally equivalent." That is that simplest algorithm to compute the evolution of a system is the system itself. I don't know that your stance has any supporting evidence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computa...irreducibility

I'm not quite sure how to align this with things like the libet experiment. Libet seems to demonstrate how our will to act preceeds our consciousness of the will to act. So it's not even certain that, if the brain is computationally irreducible, that "you, the consciousness" is the computation or is just a system of awareness of the computational results of your deterministic brain.

Even if the brain/universe is computationally irreducible, I fail to see anything free about the behavior of a computationally irreducible system. Just because it can't be computationally predicted doesn't mean it's still not _simply_ computing.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Nick Treklis

By infinite I mean unbound in every way, and only existence can rightly be said to be infinite based on that definition. This isn't difficult to understand, so it shouldn't really matter if my definition of infinite is mathematically or scientifically accepted.

Also, this would be a much more productive discussion if you didn't try to relate everything I say to a scientific theory you think it most closely resembles. So I'd like to see if you can directly address the logic of my statement in hopes that we can get to the bottom of our perceived disagreement.